Kim:

Okay, um, this interview is regarding file number 22-66177. The date is 2022 May 16th. Time right now is 12:48. We are at the, uh, Annex building, 265 [sic] East Cordova Street in the City of Vancouver and I am the primary interviewer, Cst. Jin Kim, PIN number 3284, and monitoring is gonna be Det. Amber McElroy, PIN number 2342. Short synopsis, on February 25th, 2022, uh, Patrick Fox was convicted of breach of probation. Fox was released from jail on April 17th, 2022. One of his probation conditions was n-, to not disseminate, distribute, publish or make publicly available in any manner whatsoever, directly or indirectly, information, statements, comments, videos or photographs which reference to or the pi-, capu-, Capuano. As of today, his website, www.com [sic] desicapuano.com is still open to the general public, which is in contravention to his probation conditions. Fox also failed to report to his probation officer on April 21st, which is part of his probation conditions. The subject was arrested by arrest officer using a prepare arrest script, which I reviewed, and satisfied that all of the requirements of section 10(a) and 10(b) of the charter have been satisfied, that, uh, Mr. Fox has been given the official warning and that Mr. Fox is aware that he's subject to audio-video recording while in police custody. During the interview, I may make disparasing (phonetic) comments about people involved in this incident or about other people. These comments do not reflect my opinion or the opinion of the Vancouver Police Department.

McElroy:

(Unintelligible)

Kim:

Yeah, okay, come in Mr. Fox.

McElroy:

(Unintelligible)

Kim:

'Kay, the time is 12:51. I'm gonna turn the audio device off, okay? But this room is being, uh, videotaped and audiotaped, okay?

Fox:

Ooh. I'd really prefer if you left that on 'cause you guys have a lot of technical problems with your audio. Like for example, a year ago when, uh, Tanino was interviewing me…

Fox:

…the audio wasn't working in the room at all and so the only thing we had was the, the DAR.

McElroy:

Okay.

Kim:

Yeah, sure.

McElroy:

Uh, so we previously turned the DAR off…

Kim:

(Makes gesture)

McElroy:

…once we reached the interview room. Uh, it's 12:52. We've now re-turned it on as per Mr. Fox's request just barring any further technical difficulties, so it will remain on for the duration of the interview.

Kim:

Perfect. Have a seat. Yeah, good.

McElroy:

Okay.

Kim:

Yeah.

McElroy:

Hey. So, um, Mr. Fox, I haven't fully introduced myself to you. My name is Det. Amber McElroy.

Fox:

Amber… ?

McElroy:

Amber McElroy.

Fox:

Okay.

McElroy:

Yeah. Uh, you can call me Amber, though. Uh, is it okay if I call you Patrick? Would you prefer Mr. Fox? What would you prefer?

Fox:

Almost everybody in the world calls me Fox, so…

McElroy:

Y-, just Fox?

Fox:

…because our relationship is more professionalistic (phonetic) with Det. McElroy and Mr. Fox.

McElroy:

Okay, good pronunciation. Thank you for that. Not everybody gets it. Um, all right, so you've been dealing with my partner and he was saying that there was a bit of, um, confusion around your conditions and I guess…

Fox:

No, there's no confusion around…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…my conditions. No.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

Um, I was required to report one time…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…only for the purpose of informing the probation officer, uh, what steps, the exact steps I had taken to cause the website to no longer be available.

McElroy:

Yes, okay.

Fox:

On the 19th of April…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…I reported in person and I have them-, (makes gesture) piece of paper in my bag from when they, uh, signed it and said you have to, we want you to come back in two days, and I told them that, no, I'm only required to report one time. It says right here (makes gesture) in the probation order. I just have to report one time with the purpose of informing them of what steps I've taken to cause the website to no longer be available, and I don't have to report any second or third or subsequent times.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

Um, and so then I called Crown Counsel Chris Johnson afterwards to let him know that the probation department was making a fuss…

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

…saying they wanted me to come back in two days and he said, well, it's my understanding you're only required to report one time and you did that, so it's done.

McElroy:

My apologies. Who did you call?

Fox:

Chris Johnson.

McElroy:

And who, where does he work?

Fox:

Uh, he's the ad hoc Crown Counsel on the last few cases…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…they prosecuted against me.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

Because…

McElroy:

So he gave you the understanding that that was sufficient?

Fox:

The judge gave me the understanding that that was sufficient…

McElroy:

(Unintelligible)

Fox:

…because I don't know if you've read the probation order, but the condition very clearly states that I'm required to report (makes gesture) one time…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…and one time only, and once I have done that, there's no further reporting required.

McElroy:

Okay. And so at that point when you went on the 19th, can you give me an idea of, of what you reported? What di-, did…

Fox:

Sure.

McElroy:

…what steps did you take?

Fox:

Sure. I told, uh, Julie was her name…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…that I have taken absolutely no steps to cause the website to be no longer available because the website went offline, it is my understanding, a couple of weeks before I was released from custody. So at the time of my release, it was already offline. There was nothing that I either could do or would have to do.

McElroy:

Okay. And how did you, uh, become aware that the website was offline?

Fox:

That's a good question. I don't really recall how it first came to my attention.

McElroy:

Okay. And do you know who had the authority to take it offline if not you?

Fox:

I have absolutely no idea.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

Listen. The website, the website has not been under my control for a number of years.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

That was done deliberately. Like I've been over this (makes gesture) time and time and time again.

McElroy:

Yeah, uh…

Fox:

It was done on purpose because if I were (unintelligible) control the website, I can't be compelled to do anything with the website.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, and so prior to being on probation (makes gesture), I gave up all control and so all the time that I've been on probation for the past three-and-a-half years or so now, um, I've had no involvement and no ownership or control with the website.

McElroy:

Okay. So, I mean, I'm not super tech sawy, um…

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

…but I know that you are, so if you give up control of the website, you'd have to put someone in charge of that, right? There's passwords. There's things that they would have to know. Is that not correct?

Fox:

Um, the current website, well, I can't call it current because the website went offline before I got released from custody. Okay, so that website…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…uh, went online while I was in custody, so I didn't have ownership or control of it right from the beginning.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, I'm not saying that I do or don't know who might've been involved in initially setting it up, but that's got nothing to do with why I'm here today, so I sure would like to know why it is that I'm here today since the website went offline before I got released from custody…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…and I was only required to report for probation one time. So both of those things were fulfilled, so why am I here?

McElroy:

Yeah. So, I'll, I'll tell you my understanding, so the probation condition, it's not actually something that we enforce. It's the probation officer.

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

So what they've told us is that yes, you did come in on the 19th…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…um, and at that point, you told them something differently and they said that they wanted you to come back on the 21st…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…to meet with your actual probation officer 'cause Julie, the woman you spoke to, is just the like, the he-, the probation officer for that day. Not your specific probation officer.

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

So, they made an appointment for you at that time to come back on the 21st and when you didn't show up for that appointment on the 21st, that's what caused this warrant for your arrest.

Fox:

Oh, okay, wait, so is there actually a warrant? Or is it just an investigation at this time?

McElroy:

So there's a warrant, um, for your arrest for that charge.

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

And then secondary to that, you're being charged with failure to t-, um, comply with your probation because the website's still up and running.

Fox:

(Chuckles)

McElroy:

So there's two charges.

Fox:

Well, okay, let's be clear, though.

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

You said that the website is still up and running.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

The word still means that it has been up and running continuously. Is there some question as to whether or not it was actually offline, I mean?

McElroy:

I don't have any record of it being offline. What I have a record of and what probation saw…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…on the 21st was that…

Fox:

What's today?

McElroy:

April 21st, um, is when they checked it before they issued the warrant.

Fox:

They checked it on April 21st and they're claiming it was on line?

McElroy:

Yes. Password protected online.

Fox:

Well i-, i-, okay, if it's accessible on the internet but there's a password on it…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…such that nobody can access it, first that would still meet the requirements because the requirement is that it not be available. It's not available if you require a password. Um, second, if it requires a password, how do they know there's anything there?

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

I mean, the page could just be blank.

McElroy:

It still gives you previews on Google on what you're going to see potentially on that website. And I think, um, we're arguing kind of semantics here. For me, uh, being a novice…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…offline means you can't get to it. There's no record (unintelligible).

Fox:

You can't.

McElroy:

But you can actually type it into the, the search and you can actually have a point where it asks you for a password. So Crown is not considering that offline.

Fox:

Ah, that's fine. That's fine. They can, they can shove it up their ass. I don't give a fuck.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

Um, go ahead. Try to find some evidence that I have anything at all to do with this website, m-, …

McElroy:

Yeah, but we both know, you know who's running it (unintelligible).

Fox:

No, I really don't. That was done on purpose. I can't tell you who's running it if I don't know who's running it.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

I mean…

McElroy:

So can you walk me through how that happens?

Fox:

How what happens?

McElroy:

How do you give an unknown person all of the information to access and control the website without knowing who that person is?

Fox:

Um, your question is based on the premise that I gave the content or the information to some unknown person. Um, that's not the case.

McElroy:

So it's a known person.

Fox:

Okay. There's me.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

There's a second person involved, which I've already stated, I've already testified about in court…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…my friend Liz Munoz (phonetic), and then there's some other third party beyond that. And who that other third party was that did whatever they did, um, I have no idea. I don't wanna know.

McElroy:

So Liz Munoz operated as your, your middleman so to speak.

Fox:

I decline to answer.

McElroy:

Okay. Liz Munoz at one point had access to your passwords for the website in order to pass them on to a third person.

Fox:

Well, no, because when the current, or not current, when the second version of the website went online…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…it wasn't done with my passwords or anything.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Like th-, th-, they didn't access to my accounts to do it. It was set up as a new website, and…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…if anything, I would've required the passwords from them.

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

So…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…anyway, I feel like we've been down this before.

McElroy:

Okay. Sorry, and before we get too far into this, and I should've mentioned earlier 'cause I just really wanted to answer your questions first, I know that you declined to speak to a lawyer…

Fox:

Yes.

McElroy:

…um, at the scene. You have an opportunity now and we can stop and we can, you can talk to a lawyer now. I know that typically you like to operate as your own lawyer. Has that changed? What's your preference in what you'd like to do right now?

Fox:

There's been no change in my preference. I have no interest in speaking with a lawyer who's just gonna collude with the Crown and sabotage the case and (makes gesture) so…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…if I'm gonna lose the case anyway, I'd rather lose it by myself.

McElroy:

Okay, and all of your contact today, um, has been with myself and Det., uh, Jin Kim, and I just wanna make sure that you haven't had the impression or the conversation or thought that we've promised you any incentives to participate in this process or told you that anything could go poorly for you if you don't participate in this process.

Fox:

Um, sure.

McElroy:

Okay, I mean, I just…

Fox:

Sorry. I'm giving a question that is as vague as…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…the proposition that you had just made. Um, I mean, to say that, um, okay, if I cooperate and answer the questions, then things are likely to go better for me, or you would think, anyway, that they would be likely to go better for me than if I didn't cooperate. So, I mean, the question's kind of silly.

McElroy:

Well, I'm just asking if Det. Kim…

Fox:

(Unintelligible)

McElroy:

…or myself has had that conversation with you.

Fox:

Um, no, and I'm familiar with the conversation. We can skip all the boiling plate (phonetic) (makes gesture). Um…

McElroy:

Okay. All right.

Fox:

…there's been no threats. There's been no, uh, uh, offers of any kind of benefits.

McElroy:

Okay. Thank you. Um…

Fox:

There has, however, been an inquiry about coffee and cigarettes.

McElroy:

And what was the answer to that? I'm sorry. I wasn't privy.

Fox:

It was left in limbo.

McElroy:

Okay, did you say that you'd like coffee, or…?

Fox:

Of course I would like coffee and cigarettes…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…but…

McElroy:

Um, I will, uh, I can check now with…

Fox:

…mm.

McElroy:

…my partner to see what the status is on that. Okay?

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

All right. So, we've got two cups here for ya. There's no cream. Um, there's a sugar cube in each one.

Fox:

Oh, gross. I take it black, but I'll put up with the sugar cube.

McElroy:

Okay. There's just one, so should've asked. Uh, we can't do anything about cigarettes, sorry.

Fox:

No? I guess crack is out of the question, too, then, huh?

McElroy:

Crack is out of the question. Um, did you have any cigarettes that you had in your bag?

Fox:

No, I have to go pick some up.

McElroy:

Okay. All right. So we're just gonna push through then…

Fox:

Sure.

McElroy:

…if that's all right with you. Um, okay, so again, I don't have full file knowledge that you've probably picked up on. Your file has been in our unit for quite a while and it's rotated through detectives and I, I know that you've, you've been droppin' names, so you're familiar with who you've dealt with in the past. Um, I'm obviously a new face to you and I've done a bit of research, as much as I could, about your file and I understand what you're saying is you've given up control so to speak on your website, but knowing who the middle person is, that control potentially could be seized back, and I guess that's the…

Fox:

Wait (makes gesture) …

McElroy:

…sticking point for Crown.

Fox:

…no, no, see, Crown, Crown brought this up, too. Chris Johnson, that fuckin' dipshit at the trial.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, he argued that since Munoz, uh, took care of the arrangements to have the website put back online back in 2018 while I was in custody and therefore couldn't have possibly had anything to do with it…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…um, that if I wanted to get the website taken down now, I could go through her and then she would be able to provide me the information or something.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, but, no, that's not the case. I mean, she no longer has anything to do with it now.

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

And even if she did, why would she help me? I mean…

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

…you guys have no influence over her. She's in the US. She doesn't give a shit about what happens up here in Canada.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

And she can't stand my ex-wife, so I mean…

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

…but anyway, why does any of this matter?

McElroy:

Uh, well, I'm just looking at the website, so it was password protected for a period of time and then sometime over the weekend, it popped back up and it's open to the public again.

Fox:

(Nods head) Mm.

McElroy:

Um, there's some interesting updates in there, which include information about disclosure from your trial…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…which, as you representing yourself, you would have free and fair access to. I'm wondering how the person running your website would have access to that information.

Fox:

Um, I don't know, but that's not really relevant anyway because there's nothing in any of the probation conditions that prohibits me from publishing any information about my cases. I'm only prohibited from publishing information about Capuano.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, and so if information about my case has ended up in someone's hands and they forwarded it to someone and somewhere along the line it ended up on the internet, it doesn't violate any probation conditions, so it's simply not relevant. But, um, you said that there was, the password was taken off or something?

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

So what's online right now?

McElroy:

Uh, it's a full website as it was before with some updates.

Fox:

Interesting.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

So then if I have a probation condition that says that I am required to take all the necessary steps to ensure that the website is no longer available via the internet or any other means, which is essentially what the probation condition says, if the website goes back online, how quickly am I supposed to (makes gesture) take these necessary steps to get it taken down again? Am I supposed to fuckin' watch the website 24 hours a day, seven days a week? And…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…that would seem a little ridiculous, so…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think the whole consensus, though, is, uh, what you're providing is not having control over this website, does not, to me, seem plausible…

Fox:

(Makes gesture)

McElroy:

…because…

Fox:

I don't care.

McElroy:

…you built this. You've taken pride in…

Fox:

But…

McElroy:

…building it. You've…

Fox:

…let me ask you a question.

McElroy:

…spoken to the media about it.

Fox:

Uh, if you…

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

…owned a car…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…today, does that mean that 10 years down the road you still own that car?

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Are you not able to transfer that car? Can you not abandon that car?

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Yeah, why does everybody assume that just because I created the website eight fucking years ago…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…that I must still own it and run it.

McElroy:

Because in, in th-, your subsequent interviews, you've openly said that you, the website will continue to be up (unintelligible).

Fox:

Yes, it will be because I have no fucking control over it.

McElroy:

And you said if it gets…

Fox:

You can (unintelligible) you want. It's not gonna matter.

McElroy:

…if it gets taken down, it's gonna pop up again 'cause I've saved all the content. It's important to you that this website is up and running and that it continues. You've made that very, very clear, and for someone of your intelligence and your skillset, to just hand that over to someone else, it just, to me, I don't quite get it.

Fox:

Tell me something.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

If I'm so intelligent that I could set up this website and do all this stuff and I'm so sneaky about it, and I'm able to do it in such a way that technically you guys can never prove that it's me, um, there's, I have no ties to British Columbia or to Canada at all. Um, why am I still here then? Why would I keep the website online or put the website back online? You guys know that I'm at the Belkin House.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, and then just sit around and wait for you guys to come and arrest me?

McElroy:

Well, what were your plans after the Belkin House?

Fox:

That seems pretty fuckin' impossible, too, you gotta admit.

McElroy:

Yeah, but you're last day at the Belkin House is comin' up.

Fox:

No, I have…

McElroy:

What were your plans after that?

Fox:

…I had an extension.

McElroy:

No, I understand that, but it's comin' up still within this month, so what's, what were your plans after that for a place to stay?

Fox:

I don't know. Maybe go to the Yukon?

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

Maybe go back to Los Angeles. Who knows. I mean, I can't really plan more than a day or two in advance because…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…I know you guys can come at any moment and accuse me of whatever ridiculous thing and…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…arrest me again, so…

McElroy:

Yeah. You have spent…

Fox:

…I was (unintelligible) (makes gesture) day to day.

McElroy:

…a lot of time in custody. Is that…

Fox:

Yeah, six years.

McElroy:

And, and thats-, seems to be within your control.

Fox:

Right.

McElroy:

Um…

Fox:

Oh, of course, because all I have to do is take down the website, right?

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Mm-hmm, yeah.

McElroy:

Yeah. Have you made efforts to try to do that? Or are you just…

Fox:

What, take down the website?

McElroy:

…are you washing your hands of the whole thing and it's outta your control and you can't…

Fox:

Upon my release from custody, there were no efforts to make. The website was offline. I me-, and when I first got released, there was no password or anything. There was just a, was it a 401 or a 403…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…message? Um, 'cause the content had been deleted or something?

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

Um, and then subsequent to that, at some point, somebody put a password on there.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, why they put a password, I don't know (makes gesture). Mm…

McElroy:

Okay, and how did someone get your disclosure for those recent updates on the website against the woman who you're not supposed to have…

Fox:

Well…

McElroy:

…this up and running, right? So having those updates and making the website relevant and current…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…would be, um, in violation of your condition.

Fox:

Let me ask you this question.

McElroy:

(Unintelligible) Sure.

Fox:

All the stuff that you're talking about, this disclosure material and stuff that's…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…on the website. Um, if that same material was put onto a different website that wasn't called desicapuano.com, let's say if it was called, um, rpfox.com or something.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

There would be absolutely nothing about that that would violate the probation conditions. I mean…

McElroy:

I would probably agree with that, yeah.

Fox:

Right. So, putting that content, um, making that content accessible under, uh, desicapuano.com, the domain name…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…Ii-, or likewise doesn't violate any probation conditions. The website itself, um, was required to, oh, sorry, I'm not even required to take the website down. I'm only required to take all steps necessary to cause the website to be no longer available. Upon my release from custody…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…the website was no longer available. Therefore, there was nothing for me to do in that respect. And the other probation condition simply prohibits me from publishing any information about, uh, Capuano.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

And I don't know what new information has been put up there that you're referring to, but, uh, I'm assuming it probably has nothing to do with Capuano.

McElroy:

Well, it has to do with your proceedings and…

Fox:

(Makes gesture) That's not the point.

McElroy:

…someone got that information, if it wasn't you, that posted it, got that information from likely yourself.

Fox:

Regardless. Let's say, for the sake of argument…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…let's say that I took all that disclosure material and I emailed it to editor@desicapuano.com, the email address which has been right there on the website for as long as…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…I can recall. Um, by doing that, still, I would not be violating the probation conditions because there is nothing in the probation conditions that prohibits me from publishing or sharing or disseminating the disclosure material.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, conditions actually state that…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…it has to be no longer available by the internet.

Fox:

Yes.

McElroy:

So it is available by password.

Fox:

Well, according to you, from what you're telling me, it's, wait…

McElroy:

(Unintelligible)

Fox:

…(unintelligible) I'm sorry, you're s-, you said it was available by password.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

How do you know? Like did you know what the password was? I mean , I had tried to go to it and it prompted me for a name and a password.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

I didn't know the name and the password, so I just went, okay, fuck it. It's not my problem anymore. The website's not accessible, so I don't give a shit. Maybe when I go back to the US, maybe I'll see what I can do about taking it back or somethin' , but for now, it's not my problem. Um, but it sounds to me like you're saying that behind the password, there was actually some, some content there. So I'm curious like, did you have the password? Did somebody give you access to the site?

McElroy:

No. I don't have access.

Fox:

Then how do you know there was anything there? How do you know there wasn't just a blank page? Like the, okay, to put a password like that on a website…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…I mean it, it's just a matter of an apatchi (phonetic). It's just one configuration setting in a, in a text file.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, like there's no reason for anyone to believe, me included, that there was anything being hidden by that password.

McElroy:

Well there's no reason to believe that it isn't, though, and that's the question, I guess. I think it's the unknowing.

Fox:

Yeah, because (unintelligible) …

McElroy:

The assumption, the assumption would be that there is…

Fox:

…mm.

McElroy:

…something there, and either way, it's the URL with…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…her name in it with a password.

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

Um, and then it's been removed, and now it's up and live again.

Fox:

Okay, well I don't know anything about it…

McElroy:

So…

Fox:

…so I couldn't comment on that.

McElroy:

…so we are, um, following up with that, and that's why you're here today.

Fox:

Okay.

McElroy:

'Cause you've been charged with that violation because it's up and live, and because we believe, and Crown Counsel believes…

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

…that you do have control of the website…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…um, and you obviously are saying that you don't…

Fox:

Well…

McElroy:

…and that's what's getting debated.

Fox:

…tell me something.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

If you're so convinced that I have access or control over the website, why is it that in the past three or four years that I've been prosecuted three times and now we're about to start a fourth one…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…for this, nobody has ever come up with a single piece of evidence tying me to the website. Nobody has made any attempt to contact the hosting provider to ask whose name is on the account.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Whose credit card is paying for the account.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Yeah.

McElroy:

Who is the hosting provider right now?

Fox:

GoDaddy.

McElroy:

GoDaddy?

Fox:

Oh, sorry, as far as I know, it's…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…GoDaddy.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

But clearly, there have been changes made recently that I wasn't aware of, so…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Tell me something else.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

If the Crown is so concerned about this website and about protecting Capuano, because of course they won't wannu admit that their concern is that there's disclosure material or something that makes them look bad. So, they keep arguing that Desiree Capuano needs to bre (phonetic), needs to be protected from this website. So why is it that nobody has bothered to try to get a US court order to get this website taken down. Why is it that the only thing they've done is prosecute me and put me in jail for it. Because that clearly is not causing the website to come down.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

So it seems if, if their concern is protecting Capuano, it seems that what they should be doing is probably trying to get a US court order, right?

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

To make GoDaddy…

McElroy:

It's…

Fox:

…take the website down?

McElroy:

…it's a, it's a multiple process and we have made attempts with GoDaddy before and it was down for a period of time.

Fox:

Yes. It was down for 90 days.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm. Um, and that's something that we're working on, as well. Obviously this would be facilitated a lot quicker if you just made the calls and got it taken down. Um, and the belief is that you do have control and that's obviously…

Fox:

(Makes gesture)

McElroy:

…the most easy, direct route for us to follow through with, but you're right. They might have to go through…

Fox:

Please. It's…

McElroy:

…through a court order as, which…

Fox:

…it's been three years and you…

McElroy:

…it's been…

Fox:

…have done nothing to do that…

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

…because you know that no US court order's gonna give you, uh, an injunction like against GoDaddy to take this website down because there is absolutely nothing illegal on there.

McElroy:

M'kay.

Fox:

Um…

McElroy:

I don't believe that's the consideration. I believe that we're a very busy police department and this is taking enormous…

Fox:

Yet not busy enough to have your officers…

McElroy:

…resources.

Fox:

Yes, it is, so why…

McElroy:

Yes.

Fox:

…do you keep doing it? It's such…. Okay. It's such a stupid…

McElroy:

We, we feel equally frustrated.

Fox:

You can simply not investigate me.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

You can simply go, you know what? We have bigger fuckin' things to deal with. We have people actually killing each other and raping each other and such.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, but instead, you wanna have to write all these RTCCs and have to come and testify in court, and every time you guys come and testify in court, I…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…end up making somebody look like a complete fuckin' idiot. Um, last time it was Dent.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

As I caught him lying about stuff at the previous trial.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Anyway, um…

McElroy:

Yeah, I don't know why you're goin' through all this ordeal either, and it would be nice…

Fox:

(Makes gesture) I'm not goin' through…

McElroy:

…it would be nice f-, to hear…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…that you're contacting, um, Liz and you're making efforts, and she should know who's involved and that this is something that you've done to be exhausted to your full measures of your ability to get this website down, but I think you're enjoying just sitting back and washing your hands of it and saying it's got a life of its own now, that I gave it, and now I have no control and my ex-wife now is gonna be harassed for the rest of her life.

Fox:

(Makes gesture) Tell me something.

McElroy:

And it's not gonna be on me.

Fox:

Okay, I don't believe that she is harassed in the slightest bit by this because in the eight years that this website has existed, she has never once filed a single complaint with the hosting provider. She filed one complaint about some emails…

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

…but that had nothing to do with the website. She has never done anything at all to get this website taken down. All she's done is things that could be reasonably expected to result in me being arrested and imprisoned.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm. Well, I don't think we fully know to the extent that she's been affected by this. I haven't…

Fox:

(Makes gesture)

McElroy:

…you know?

Fox:

You would think that she would at least file a complaint with Go Daddy if she…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…was being affected in any way at all.

McElroy:

And we don't know that she hasn't.

Fox:

No. I do know. Well, actually, sorry. I can't say that I know 100 per cent for certain, but I'm quite confident.

McElroy:

Because you don't run the site.

Fox:

Well, no, I'm, say, like okay, if she had filed a complaint, then the complaint would've been forwarded to the person whose name is on the, uh, hosting account, and I would think that maybe that person would notify me of it, but…

McElroy:

So you are aware who that person is (unintelligible).

Fox:

…editor@desicapuano.com. That's all I know.

McElroy:

They have a way of contacting you?

Fox:

I have an email address…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…patrickhfox@gmail.com.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

They have an email address, editor@desicapuano.com.

McElroy:

So we have…

Fox:

I've sent them emails.

McElroy:

…okay, and so we have your devices.

Fox:

Yes.

McElroy:

Um, it would be a lot easier for us to be able to go in and, and take a look at those emails and make sure there's no familiarity, that you're not first-name basis…

Fox:

Yeah.

McElroy:

…that you don't have that relationship. Are you willing to assist us with that?

Fox:

I think, I think that you know the answer to that question.

McElroy:

Yeah, I know that it's been asked before. So this is what I'm talking…

Fox:

Yes, it's not gonna happen.

McElroy:

…about. You're talking about us using all our resources and wasting your time and you getting i-, imprisoned, but you're not taking steps to assist the investigation to show that you're not culpable.

Fox:

Because I've done that in the past. I've assisted and cooperated with…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…the police and the prosecutors in the past and instead they, they just act nice and friendly and they try to get information from me that they can twist and distort and then they try to, burying anything that might prove that I'm innocent, so I don't cooperate with you guys anymore. Because it, it's, there's no benefit for me to cooperate with you, to give you the information that you're looking for. Like for example, you (unintelligible) wanna go into my devices and find some emails that I may or may not have sent to editor@desicapuano.com. You want access to my devices so you can go search through them to try to find something else that might be incriminating. Because if what you wanted was access to that email…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…you don't need my devices for that.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

This was already covered at the most recent trial. It's in a Gmail account. It's on the server.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Any computer can be used to access it.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

So…

McElroy:

It would be nice to, we'd be looking for files with a recent content that's been posted on the website…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…and see if they're i-, you know…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…(unintelligible) there on your devices.

Fox:

Because of course I'd be dumb enough to leave something incriminating on there.

McElroy:

You seem to like to spend time in jail.

Fox:

No, nope, but I sure do like exposing corruption and misconduct.

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

And that might just coincidentally be something I have in common with whoever's running the website. But simply because I like exposing corruption and misconduct in the justice system doesn't mean that I'm the person putting the stuff on the website.

McElroy:

Okay. But you have contact with them. Likely this person would…

Fox:

I have sent them emails (unintelligible).

McElroy:

…would, would be swayed by your, uh request.

Fox:

Clearly they're not because the…

McElroy:

So…

Fox:

…website is still there.

McElroy:

…so I'm asking you…

Fox:

I sent them emails.

McElroy:

…have you, have you requested that this person take the website down?

Fox:

Yes. It was the email that I sent in August of last year that I didn 't have access to at the time of the interrogation because obviously I didn't have my devices or access to the internet. So I told Tanino and Roberts at the time that I'll be able to provide them a copy of that email once I get released from custody, which I expected was probably gonna be in about three years (makes sound). And then of course, that came up at the trial, and the Crown said that he doesn't believe , and the judge said she doesn't believe, that I sent that email because if I did, then I would 've provided it and I would've given a copy to somebody. But then it turns out that the judge admits that she thought I actually had access to the internet while I was in custody.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

So she finds me guilty based on that false belief and then during sentencing it comes out that she was under the impression that I actually had access to the internet, even though that came up in the trial, but, um, so there was that email, and then the day after I got released this other time, I sent one to editor@desicapuano.com even though the website was already down.

McElroy:

And when, this is when April when you were released?

Fox:

Yes. It would've been April 18th. The day…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…after I was released.

McElroy:

Is that how you found out that it was down? Or is that 'cause you (unintelligible)?

Fox:

No. Um, I knew it was down before I was even released from custody. I think somebody mentioned it or something.

McElroy:

You don't know who?

Fox:

I didn 't really pay much attention.

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

One of the guards or something at, uh, Fraser.

McElroy:

Okay. So, are you willing to provide either of those emails?

Fox:

Sure. I will happily provide you the email. I'm not going to provide you access to my entire email account that has like literally thousands and thousands of emails from the past 10 or 15 years.

McElroy:

Okay. Right. So if you had access to the internet at some point, you could pass on that email?

Fox:

I could forward those emails if you give me the email address to forward them to. I will happily forward those to whatever email address, which I assume your email address is your first dot last name at…

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

…VPD.ca or something.

McElroy:

Yeah. I can give you my card.

Fox:

Of course, you understand , I don't have access to the internet from within custody, contrary to what the judge claimed that she believed. So, I won 't be able to provide you access to those emails until I'm released from custody, which won't be until after I'm convicted and sentenced and everything else, so…

McElroy:

Okay. And there hasn't been (unintelligible) exceptions (unintelligible) in the time that you've been incarcerated? It's always been, um, no access to the internet? That specific…

Fox:

Absolutely correct. Yeah, it's…

McElroy:

…I'm just curious, is that specific to you, or…?

Fox:

No. No.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

BC Corrections has a very strict policy against it and nobody has any access to the internet in there.

McElroy:

Okay. Okay, so, I mean, we're just tryin' to get your side of things. We're gonna, um, write up our summary of this statement, and I'll let the Crown know that you're willing to provide that information.

Fox:

Sure. Uh…

McElroy:

Which is helpful.

Fox:

…so when did the website become accessible again? Oh, I think I already asked you that, right? And you weren't sure?

McElroy:

Over this weekend. For sure on Sunday. I don't know.

Fox:

So has it been more than 48 hours?

McElroy:

Um (unintelligible).

Fox:

I'm just, I'm, I'm trying to get some clarity here on like, um, I had no reason to believe, nor did anyone else, uh, that the website was going to stay offline.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, and I was going to apply for a stay of the probation order in the court of appeals 'cause I'm still, I'm appealing, uh, these convictions and sentences. Um, but since it was already offline, I figured, oh, well, it can wait…

McElroy:

(Unintelligible)

Fox:

…it's not my priority. Um, but there's this issue (unintelligible) I have a probation condition that requires me to take all necessary steps to ensure some website that I say I don't have any influence or control over, um, if it comes back online, how quickly am I supposed to then take steps to like…

McElroy:

So I understand your argument.

Fox:

…a minute after? A day, a week, or what?

McElroy:

Yeah, no, I understand your argument, but as far as Crown sees it…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…it was never offline.

Fox:

That's i-, du-, like…

McElroy:

So that's gonna be, that's, but I'm telling you, that's where they're coming from. So you're, you're o-, you're arguing that because it had a password, you considered that offline. Crown's saying, no, I don't consider that offline, so…

Fox:

Crown c-, uh, (makes gesture) they're…

McElroy:

…in answer to your question, I don't know how long it's been live. We're looking into that right now.

Fox:

There's…

McElroy:

We know for sure it's, was live yesterday.

Fox:

Yeah.

McElroy:

It's live today.

Fox:

There's nothing in the wording of the condition that says that it has to be (makes gesture) offline or something (unintelligible).

McElroy:

Well it says it can't be available on the internet…

Fox:

Right.

McElroy:

… (unintelligible).

Fox:

No longer available.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

If there's a password on there, it is not available.

McElroy:

In your definition.

Fox:

But with the password on there, you have no idea whether or not there's actually anything behind the password. Therefore…

McElroy:

They have no idea how many people have access to that password.

Fox:

(Makes gesture) Well, it seems like…

McElroy:

(Unintelligible)

Fox:

…before…

McElroy:

It becomes…

Fox:

…they can accuse me of something, they have to first…

McElroy:

…it becomes more challenging…

Fox:

…prove that there's (unintelligible).

McElroy:

…because what is behind that password? There might be nothing. There might be even worse material back there.

Fox:

Yes, there might be. But you can't…

McElroy:

We don't know.

Fox:

…you can't prosecute and convict somebody on suppositions like that.

McElroy:

Well, that's…

Fox:

Oh, the door is locked so there must be something bad going on behind there. Come on.

McElroy:

I think it's more about not necessarily what might exist beyond the password. It's the fact that it was available, albeit at a reduced…

Fox:

(Unintelligible)

McElroy:

…at a reduced, um, amount of people giving access.

Fox:

I mean, they have…

McElroy:

So that's, that's something for the courts, right? That's not, that's not for me.

Fox:

It's something for the courts, but we know…

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

…how the system works. I'm gonna be denied bail and then I'm gonna spend six months or nine months in custody waiting for it to actually get to the court.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

And then I'll become guilty anyway because, I mean…. Is there anything on the website about, uh, these more, these recent probation breach cases.

McElroy:

Yes.

Fox:

Good. I'm assuming the disclosure material is on there?

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

From these cases? What about transcripts?

McElroy:

There's, um, snippets of transcripts.

Fox:

Mm. Interesting.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

(Makes gesture) (makes sound) All the sugar was in the bottom.

McElroy:

Mm. Okay, um, you have said in previous interviews that you, the website will never come down.

Fox:

Yes.

McElroy:

You want it to remain live.

Fox:

(Makes gesture)

McElroy:

But now…

Fox:

Wait (unintelligible) (makes gesture).

McElroy:

…do you still feel that way? Do you feel that you want it to remain live? Or do you feel…

Fox:

I have no recollection of ever saying that I wanted the website to remain live.

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

I have a recollection of saying that the website will not come down.

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

And the reason I said that is because I have no control over it. The judge orders me to take down the website and I say to her in court (makes gesture) order me all you want, but…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…it's not going to cause the website to come down. And then this most recent time, she says, well, you understand that I just made a finding that you do have control over the website (makes gesture). I'm like, are you fuckin' delusional? I didn't say this to her.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

But I should've. Um, just because she says that I have control over the website doesn't mean that I have control over the website. Like guilty beyond a reasonable doubt should require some actual evidence, um, and all of these convictions that I keep getting, which are all under appeal still and…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…um, so far they've all been just based on inferences, but neither here nor there. Um, it's not a question of whether or not I want the website to come down. Um, then, I mean, I don't really know if it is relevant to say if I want the website to come down. I mean, it has no bearing on anything.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, if I don't have the means to cause the website to come down, it doesn't matter what I want.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm. If the website came down completely, no password, nothing, you can't even find the…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…URL at all, how would you feel about that?

Fox:

Um, before we answer that, let me ask you, you had said that over the past month, uh, the website has been showing up in Google. I disagree with that. I've checked in Google. I've done some searches, and…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…um, since I've been out of custody, there's been absolutely nothing in Google about the website, so…

McElroy:

We, we have screenshots. You'll get 'em in disclosure, so…. There's little previews on Google.

Fox:

Previews on Google.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Subsequent to my release from custody.

McElroy:

No, previews of the website, yeah, subsequent.

Fox:

Fascinating. Um, I don't believe you, but…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…um…

McElroy:

I'm not lying to you.

Fox:

…i-, if…

McElroy:

Yeah, I can only tell you what I've seen.

Fox:

…if the website were to come down, I honestly wouldn't give a shit because since there is nothing requiring me to stay in BC, I have no intention of staying here any longer than, that necessary, and the only reason I'm still here now is because…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…I'm prosecuting these appeals and I didn't wanna just abandon the appeals because the appeals, in my opinion, are so strong. Like the…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…the stuff the judge did and the Crown did is so outrageous that these appeals either have to be granted, um, or it just shows how ridiculous the justice system is here.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

And so that's the re-, that's the only reason I haven't already left.

McElroy:

Okay, and if you went to the States, where would you go?

Fox:

If I went to the US, um, most likely I would return to Los Angeles. Um, and there's no point in discussing what I would do, uh, if I was to go back to, or when I go back to the US, because I'm going to be out of this jurisdiction and so it's not gonna matter what I'm gonna do.

McElroy:

Okay. Um, maybe a more relevant question then is how do you feel about Desiree right now and would you want to continue contact? Would you, is she out of your system? What's goin' on on that front?

Fox:

First, I have no interest in having any contact with her. Um, I haven't for many years. The only contact I had with her before was because of our son. The son that I raised and I had custody of and then she took and ran off to Arizona with him after being gone for nine years, and then took steps to get me deported to this country, um, and then took steps to go on the news media and such and like say all this stuff about me, um, and then take further steps, uh, for me to be convicted of criminal harassment et cetera, et cetera. Um, but there's, there's no history of any contact between us other than, um, trying to make arrangements, uh, for custody or visitation of our son.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

And there's some email threads that go on and on and on and on because there's just back-and-forth.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, I have no interest at all in having anything to do with her, um, but I continue to be subjected to the results of her actions. I'm still in Canada. I'm still fighting these stupid ridiculous, uh, criminal cases, um, that all stem from her.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, I haven't had contact with my son since 2016. Why do you suppose that is? Because of me? No, I don't think so.

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

It's difficult to put something behind you when you're still being subjected to it.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

If somebody has their boot on your head and they're holding you on the ground and then tell you, why can't you just move on? Why can't you just forget about this? Yeah, fuckin' hard to do when they've still got their boot on your head.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Anyway, if there's any concern or if what you're getting at with that is, do I think that I would ever harm her physically, no. I would never harm anybody physically unless it was in self-defence or defence of another or defence of property, blah, blah, blah , blah. Um, as for psychological harm , that's a ridiculous premise that your justice system up here actually gives credence to, but you can 't harm somebody psychologically. Uh, it doesn't exist. It's like, it's an abstract concept. Like you can hurt someone's feelings, oh, sure, is that what was in prison for, for three years? 'Cause I hurt her feelings? Come on.

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

Anyway, I guess we've reached that point where we've said everything that there is.

McElroy:

Yeah, I guess I just wanted clarification on that. So you will not harm her physically.

Fox:

I will not harm her physically. I can't harm her psychologically. It's simply not possible. Like, it's like saying, um, you can cause somebody to fear for their safety. Well, no. A person can cause themselves to fear for their safety, but like an external entity cannot cause another person to experience fear or to experience emotion. I mean, emotions and sentiments are all self-induced.

McElroy:

Okay. But creating the website caused psychological duress, whether or not you wanna acknowledge it or not…

Fox:

(Makes gesture)

McElroy:

…would you continue that type of behaviour down in the US if you were to go across, I guess? Or even in the future even, from up here.

Fox:

In the future meaning after the probation orders have expired?

McElroy:

Well, leaving this room right now…

Fox:

I mean…

McElroy:

…do you have any intention of continuing to cause her duress?

Fox:

…at this point right now, I have no intention, um, I have no intention to cause her any duress. I don't believe that she is experiencing any duress because of the website because, like I said, if she was, there's steps that she could take.

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

GoDaddy is based in Arizona. She lives in Arizona.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

I mean, it's not that hard for her to get the website taken down in Arizona if there's actually anything wrong with it, but, um , she hasn't done that.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Not a single thing. Anyway, no, I have no interest or intention in causing her any kind of duress. She is a psycho and a sociopath who causes enough problems for herself. Um, there's nothing that I would need to do to cause her any problems. And, what's more, because she's a psycho and a sociopath, there's nothing that I can do that would actually affect her anyway.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Like, uh, I'm trying to think, like what would be the absolute worst thing that I could do to her, and would that even affect her? Would she even care. I mean, she wouldn't. No matter, whatever bad circumstances might befall her, she's just going to use those to get other people's pity and sympathy and such. Which is probably why she hasn't actually taken any steps to get the website taken down.

McElroy:

Mm. And if she were to take these steps or if we were to get the court order that we were talking about to take these steps to get it down, if it's still being hosted by GoDaddy…

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

…um, what are the instructions for this anonymous third-party to do if the website is taken down?

Fox:

There are no instructions.

McElroy:

So there was, do they have access to the site data as far as you know? Has it been hard-drived, has it been saved? Were there any instructions to do so?

Fox:

Um…

McElroy:

Will it pop up again on another serving site?

Fox:

…listen, I, I can't say about that. I don't know. Um…

McElroy:

'Cause that's what you told us in the past.

Fox:

…yes, but I said a lot of things in the past. Um, I said things that I could not have possibly been involved in…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…um, because I was deliberately trying to show, or I was specifically trying to show that the police and the courts and the, the prosecutors, uh, would rather pursue and stick with a false admission that couldn't possibly be true, than to actually investigate and get to the truth of the matter.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, and that's exactly what happened. And even the judges. I mean, everybody completely ignored the fact that it would've been impossible for me to set up the website because I was at Fraser and there is no internet at Fraser. I mean I d-, I couldn't possibly have access to the source material and stuff.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

But I admitted to that, and everybody just went with that and I'm going like, wow, but…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm (unintelligible).

Fox:

…and then when I testified in court that this is ridiculous and (unintelligible) all just went with that admission I gave, would have physically been impossible for me to do that, but everybody just accepted it and then they tried to twist it around and (unintelligible) but…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm. And you had two websites before, is that correct?

Fox:

Two websi-, well, okay, um, there was one website, but the original website went offline at some point in 2018, and then it was put back online under a different, uh, domain name.

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

Um, but a website refers to the content. Not the URL.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

Like…

McElroy:

So you had two URLs.

Fox:

Right.

McElroy:

(Unintelligible)

Fox:

A URL is like a telephone number. I mean…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…it's disassociated from the device itself.

McElroy:

So the bo-, two URLs had the same content, just building on it as time progressed.

Fox:

For the most part, yes.

McElroy:

Okay, and then why the one, um, URL go offline?

Fox:

This was already discussed. I testified about it at the trial. Um, oh, you guys really should be more, better informed, and I would think that since it took you four weeks before you came and arrested me, which based on what you're saying…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…based on this claim that as far as the Crown is concerned, the website's been, uh, online all this time and…

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

…I failed to report four weeks ago, seems strange to me that you're coming and arresting me on this now. I think it's something happened recently and I suspect it's, like you're saying, the, the password thing went away on the weekend or something? And I s-, I'm pretty sure that's why I've been arrest-, arrested now. Like I'm quite confident, if th-, if what you're saying is true, um, and the password that was on the website remained there, we probably would not be sitting here right now.

McElroy:

I don't know that that's true. I think that we thought you were leaving the Belkin House this week is probably more accurate.

Fox:

I mean…

McElroy:

And where were you gonna go? A lot harder target to find.

Fox:

But why would you think that I would stay at the Belkin House all this time anyway? I mean it's no secret that I hate it here. I despise this country and I hope you all just…

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

…well, I won't say that. I m-, um, I'm sick of this country and the politics and the raging feminism and all this, I m-, um, what was my point? Oh, yeah. Well, we can choose to disagree on that. I'm, I'm choosing to believe that something went wrong with the password or something over the weekend and (makes gesture).

McElroy:

That's fine. It'll come o-, in trial anyways.

Fox:

No it won't.

McElroy:

Uh, so you, the one URL went down, you were explaining that to me and then you talked to me about how…

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

…it means you're better informed. Is that something you wanna continue? Or are we just gonna leave that at that?

Fox:

Um, better informed meaning we've already covered all this ground. Like…

McElroy:

At previous trials. Yeah.

Fox:

…I testified about it and from the previous interrogations and…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…it (unintelligible) me as getting kinda repetitive (makes gesture).

McElroy:

I get that. Yeah. Um, all right, so just so I summarize what you've been telling me 'cause I wanna get it right.

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

Uh, you haven't had the control of the website for years. Can you tell me like how many years? Can I just have a ne-, a number on that?

Fox:

The current version of the website and I'm not saying the current…

McElroy:

Desicapuano?

Fox:

Yes. The one accessible through that, uh, domain name.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, went online in, sometime in 2018. I don't know exactly when because I was in custody. I became aware of it in November or December of 2018. Um, and so from that time until now, I have had no involvement in the website and I've had no, uh, administrative access or authority or control over it.

McElroy:

Okay, so i-, if I'm understanding correctly then, that's not your (phonetic) URL. You didn't even create that URL?

Fox:

That is correct.

McElroy:

But the content was transferred from your website that you had ownership of onto this website.

Fox:

Yes because when I was arrested in 2016, I made arrangements with my friend, Liz Munoz…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…to, um, look after the website while I was in custody.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

Um, apparently she slipped up at some point and forget to renew the hosting plan or something. That's why the original website went offline.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

Because she was responsible for looking after it. I guess she felt bad or something and that's why she made the arrangements to have it put back online, but the original domain name was no longer available, hence desicapuano.com.

McElroy:

Okay. Thank you. So, and then further to that, Liz is the person who's arranging for things. You don't have any access to the person who actually has control of the site outside of the editor@desicapuano.com email.

Fox:

Um, to be a little bit more specific, I cannot say that Liz is currently or has continued to arrange anything. Um, I know that she made the, uh, the original arrangements for the site to be put back online…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…and then when I became aware of the site, I told her I don't want anything to know, I do-, I don't want anything to do with it or anything to know about it. I don't, sorry, my grammar's getting jumbled up. I don't want anything to do with it or, and I don't want to know anything about it because of the probation conditions and as long as I don't know who's running it or who's involved in it, then I can't be compelled, um, to disclose that information. So, whether she continued to have any involvement beyond that point or not, I couldn't say.

McElroy:

And that was in 2016 when you initially gave her control of it? Or in 2018 when the new website popped up.

Fox:

2018.

McElroy:

2018. 'Kay. Um, and then you've just been sending your disclosure stuff through to the editor email so that they had access to it through that?

Fox:

That's an inference that you're making, that you seem like you're trying to get me to admit to, but I haven't actually said that I sent any disclosure to anybody.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

I said, um, for the sake of argument, if I had done that…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…it wouldn't violate any probation conditions. Um, but I did not state that I did or didn't send any disclosure material to anybody. For that matter, I haven't even stated that I've had any of that disclosure material in my possession.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

I can say that, uh, that disclosure material has been put onto the internet. I'm not saying onto the website. I'm saying onto the internet in general, um, and that occurred while I was in custody. So, again, couldn't've been me that done it because I've been in custody.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm. So you're saying the disclosure information from your court cases have been on the internet, not necessarily this site, in other locations?

Fox:

Um, that's fair and reasonable to say, sure.

McElroy:

Okay. Do you want to tell me any of those potential websites?

Fox:

No. Well, wait, wait. I'm not saying that it's on a website. I'm saying on the internet.

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

Um, a website is just a particular protocol or, uh, segment of the internet. The internet is the actual network of computers.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

The World Wide Web or the, um, websites if you will, uh , that's just one part of the internet.

McElroy:

Okay. So information can be stored not necessarily connected to a URL is what you're saying or (unintelligible)?

Fox:

Right, like there could be servers, um, that don't have a website or (unintelligible) don't have, uh, a web server running on them and they're just used for storage or something.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

So when I say that as far as I know, that disclosure material and other material related to my cases, like transcripts and other interviews and videos and stuff, um, when I say that as far as I know, it's on the internet, I mean it's on a computer somewhere in the world that is connected to an accessible, via the internet.

McElroy:

So not necessarily retrievable by a Goggle short search.

Fox:

Oh, it absolutely wouldn't be…

McElroy:

No. 'Kay.

Fox:

…uh, accessible through Google.

McElroy:

So like a personal computer that has access to the internet.

Fox:

Or a server.

McElroy:

Or a server.

Fox:

Like any huge data centre in Phoenix Arizona with…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…a big GoDaddy sign on the front, for example.

McElroy:

Okay. Right. And no idea how that would 've gotten there.

Fox:

Even if I did, I wouldn't say.

McElroy:

Yeah. Okay.

Fox:

And even if, even if I did have any idea how it got there, it has no bearing on the probation conditions because, again , there is nothing in the probation conditions that prohibits me from publishing or sharing or disseminating any information about the cases.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm. I guess except if that information hypothetically sent by you to this GoDaddy big server ended…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…up on the desicapuano website.

Fox:

(Makes gesture)

McElroy:

There's a bit of a nexus there.

Fox:

Um, well then there would be the issue of it being , um , how do they say, it being associated with that particular domain name.

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

Um, but, hm, like, I mean, the probation condition is so poorly written because there's so many technical questions that come up from it, like exactly this one. Um…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…like, okay, let's say if there's the domain name desicapuano.com, but the website, all the content of the website gets deleted , so it's no longer there, but the domain name is still there because you can't delete a domain name. mean…

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

…that, you just have to wait for it to, for the registration to expire. Um, so would that mean that the condition has been complied with, if all the content of the website is gone? Even though the domain name still remains? But if you try to go to the site, you'll just get a, a 403 or a 401 error message…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…saying that the file doesn't exist. Well that would be a 404.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

Um…

McElroy:

Are you asking me?

Fox:

Yes.

McElroy:

Okay. Um, you know what? That's, that's debatable and I think we would go to Crown for their guidance on that one.

Fox:

Mm. All right. So, let's say if the Crown then agrees that, okay, all the content is gone, it's understandable that the domain name exists until it's, until the registration is done and…

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

…I don't know how long it's registered for right now, but let's say a year or five years or whatever.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, but all the content is gone so they're satisfied with that. So then if somebody uploads new completely different, unrelated content that has nothing at all to do with Capuano, um, I mean, that's not a desicapuano or desireecapuano website. It's still, but it's using that domain name.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

So is that violating the probation conditions?

McElroy:

I think the challenge was it was created as a hate website, but if it's no longer being used as…

Fox:

Please define the term hate website.

McElroy:

Ah…

Fox:

You guys have used this a number of times and nobody can give any definition for it, so…

McElroy:

…I guess harassment, targeting one particular person.

Fox:

Is telling the truth about somebody, is telling the truth about the bad conduct that a person has engaged in that has harmed other people, is that considered harassment?

McElroy:

I think so, in a…

Fox:

Huh.

McElroy:

…public forum or…

Fox:

So…

McElroy:

…you're engaging with media and you're drawing attention to it.

Fox:

She's engaging with media. So let's say if a pedophile moves in next door…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…and there's people that live in my apartment building that have children and so I put up a sign letting those people know, hey, watch your kids around him. He's been convicted in the past of, uh, what do you call it, sexual interference or something here?

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Um, so based on what you just said, that also would be harassment, wouldn't it?

McElroy:

So are you comparing your ex-wife to a pedophile?

Fox:

I think my ex-wife is a lot worse than a pedophile, but…

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

…that's just my opinion.

McElroy:

Has she been convicted of anything?

Fox:

Please.

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

So if a person hasn't been convicted of something, does that mean that they haven't done it?

McElroy:

I just don't think you're comparing apples to apples, right?

Fox:

(Makes gesture).

McElroy:

So i-, it has been determined by the courts…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…in Canada that it is a website used for harassment and victimization of your wife, your ex-wife.

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

Um, so I don't know…

Fox:

Well, if that's the case…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…then why do they insist on not prosecuting me for criminal harassment?

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

I mean, I'm sure you've seen that aspect of my background that I've been amending.

McElroy:

That was the initial, that was the initial charge.

Fox:

Right.

McElroy:

And so subsequently, it's, uh, sufficient to just keep running the breaches if you continue to breach your conditions. There's no need to bring back another harassment charge for that.

Fox:

Really.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

Okay. Kinda seems like prosecuting somebody for, um, trespassing when really they committed a home invasion, but…

McElroy:

It's about re-victimization, and I think that's probably been explained to you.

Fox:

Well, no, it hasn't because every time somebody brings up something like that, then I point out, well, if the goal is to protect Capuano, then why is it that you guys are focusing all your efforts on putting me in jail rather than focusing your efforts on a US court order to take the website down…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…because…

McElroy:

'Cause you have openly stated that it doesn't matter where it gets hosted. You're gonna keep poppin' it back up on the internet, or someone's gonna keep popping it back on the internet. So is that the most valid use of our resources to continue…

Fox:

Clearly (unintelligible) isn't accomplishing anything.

McElroy:

…to continue writing MLATs to get these websites taken down if they keep poppin' up on different servers.

Fox:

It seems to me…

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

…that the tactic that you guys are taking…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…locking me up, is accomplishing absolutely nothing.

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

The website is still there. Um, it seems to me that getting the US court order, um, to take down the website, which I know part of the reason you won't do it is because there's no way a US court would (unintelligible) order, but, um, it would seem to me that that would probably be a much more effective route to go, though.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

I mean, clearly locking me up is not accomplishing anything.

McElroy:

No, and I think there is a theory that you, you like to be inside. I mean it's interesting it's your last week at the Belkin House and all of a sudden the passwords come off the website and you were expecting us.

Fox:

Of course I was expecting you.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

I was expecting you from the day that I was released, I mean…

McElroy:

Yes, we, we were a bit tardy, weren't we.

Fox:

…I was wondering what, what's…

McElroy:

And so (unintelligible) a little bit more of, uh, incentive to get you…

Fox:

Uh-huh.

McElroy:

…quicker?

Fox:

Sure, okay.

McElroy:

That's…

Fox:

Um, if my time was running out, okay, well…

McElroy:

And you had no plans to go wer-, anywhere else.

Fox:

Mm, but let's say if my time at the Belkin House was running out…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…and what is the theory then that I was concerned that I was gonna be sleeping on the streets?

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

Oh, okay, um…

McElroy:

Did you have another plan?

Fox:

Yes.

McElroy:

Okay, so you do have somewhere to go.

Fox:

Well, of course I've got places I can go. I can go back to Los Angeles. I've got friends and family in Los Angeles. I'm sure I'll be okay when I get there.

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

Of course it takes money to get there, but…

McElroy:

Yeah. So not a, not a short-term solution. More of a long-term solution.

Fox:

(Nods head) (unintelligible)

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

Mm, anyway…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…yeah.

McElroy:

Um, I'm gonna go pop out to my partner, see if there's anything that I missed asking you.

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

Um, and then if not, then I guess we can wrap this up.

Fox:

Great.

McElroy:

Okay.

McElroy:

All right, um, it looks like we're pretty much ready to wrap it up. Is there anything that you wanted to say that you haven't said, any questions that you might have or anything…

Fox:

Yes.

McElroy:

…okay.

Fox:

I would love for you guys to show me some proof, uh, to support this claim that the website became publicly accessible over the weekend.

McElroy:

Mm.

Fox:

Because it seems strange to me that we're going through all of this, yet there's no actual proof of it. I mean, how do I know that any of this is even true?

McElroy:

So what do you want, uh, like a screenshot? A captured screenshot?

Fox:

I would like you t-, I would like to see you pull up the website and show me right now that it's actually accessible. Because a screenshot could've been taken at anytime. It could've been doctored or something…

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

…and that doesn't prove anything.

McElroy:

Okay. I won't be doing it on my personal device, but there is a computer next door that we can pull it up on…

Fox:

Okay.

McElroy:

…and get that set, okay?

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

Other than that, is there anything else?

Fox:

I don't believe that there is anything else that you would be able or willing to assist me with at this time.

McElroy:

Okay. All right. Um, I'll get that ready and then we'll, we'll wrap it up in here and then go…

Fox:

Get that ready?

McElroy:

…well I'll just get it loaded up on the computer for you.

Fox:

Open a web browser and you just (unintelligible) (makes gesture) the URL.

McElroy:

Yeah, I understand, but it's not a place that we typically let people who are in custody in, so…

Fox:

Mm.

McElroy:

…we're gonna prepare the room…

Fox:

I see.

McElroy:

…and then get you into it. This is an interview room where it's prepared.

Fox:

Yeah, I understand. Um, seems suspicious to me, but okay.

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

I don't know.

McElroy:

All right. You've asked and I'm willing to comply with that request.

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

But it's, it's nothing something that we do typically, so it will take a couple…

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

…minutes to prepare.

Fox:

Okay.

McElroy:

If you'd like us to search it in front of you, I have no problem doing that, but I'm not gonna bring you into the room without prepping my partner first and getting everything out that we need to get out.

Fox:

Sure, course. Yeah, it just seems strange that you don't have like a device or something that you could just put on the table here and go, you know, here's the website. Here's proof that it's up and running.

McElroy:

Yeah, no, I need to prepare that. We don't have a laptop.

Fox:

Maybe you should let me go and come arrest me again later when you're ready.

McElroy:

Yeah? When, when works for you.

Fox:

Um, tomorrow morning works for me.

McElroy:

Tomorrow morning? All right. I might have a conflict. We'll see if we can get this set up today.

McElroy:

Okay, so I did my best to try to get you access to it. Unfortunately, my work firewall is not letting me into your site, so…

Fox:

Yeah.

McElroy:

…I can't provide you that at this point.

Fox:

Sure.

McElroy:

Okay? Um, but…

Fox:

This, this sure is, yeah, I don't believe you.

McElroy:

…and that's fine.

Fox:

Um…

McElroy:

That's fine. Um, I know that I've seen it. Our analyst has seen it. Crown has seen it. So, um…

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

…if you need to see it at some point, I'm sure that will be allowed to you, but I just can't opperate, I can't give you that option right now.

Fox:

Uh-huh.

McElroy:

Okay?

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

Um, so if there's nothing else, I'll end the interview.

Fox:

Sh-, mm, wait, okay.

McElroy:

Sure.

Fox:

So I just wanna make sure that this is clearly stated on the record…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…that I have been arrested and detained now based on an allegation that the website became publicly accessible again within the past few days, yet for some reason the VPD is not able to actually show me that the website is actually online. That's…

McElroy:

Okay. That's on the record.

Fox:

…okay.

McElroy:

Just to clarify that you are being arrested because it has been live since your, um, release from custody and it hasn't been taken down, so…

Fox:

You've already admitted that you have absolutely no evidence to support that whatsoever.

McElroy:

Okay, but it's, it's, we-, your argument against what Crown is saying and so in Crown's opinion, like we've discussed already…

Fox:

Mm-hmm.

McElroy:

…it has been live this whole time. We agree to disagree on that.

Fox:

Okay.

McElroy:

But yes, you're right, I wasn't able to show you today.

Fox:

Right. Even though you have other devices that don't go through your firewall, but now, well, okay, whatever. I, I think the whole thing is just a load of crap. I think that…

McElroy:

Yeah.

Fox:

…you guys for whatever reason, or probably the Crown, for whatever reason, is just tryin' to give me a hard time. Um, and that's why you're bringing up this thing about like this reporting thing. I mean, the Crown himself stated that I was only required to report one time.

McElroy:

Mm-hmm.

Fox:

And I think you guys probably figured that I was gonna screw up or do something wrong at some point and like it's been four weeks and I haven't done anything wrong and so I think you just came and arrested me just for this n-, you'll find something while I'm in custody for the next, well you will try anyway. I don't believe you about this website, about it being online and stuff. I think this is just nonsense that you guys are making up so you can justify bringing me down here, so…

McElroy:

Okay, I'm sorry you feel that way.

Fox:

Mm.

McElroy:

Um…

Fox:

I mean, your inability to, like you guys didn't print out any pages from it? You didn't like, it was online at some point (unintelligible)?

McElroy:

Will you accept a printout? I can get my analyst to send me something and I can print it.

Fox:

That would be something…

McElroy:

Okay.

Fox:

…at least.

McElroy:

That's fine. I'm just not gonna search it on my personal phone because…

Fox:

Search.

McElroy:

…I believe that you still have, um, access to the website and likely might be able to have access to that information, so we are gonna disagree about that, but…

Fox:

Oh.

McElroy:

…I can get you a printout if…

Fox:

Sure.

McElroy:

…you would like.

Fox:

Um, I mean, sure, that's fine, but like I said, a printout doesn't really prove anything because it's (unintelligible).

McElroy:

Okay, so what do you want me to do here, Mr. Fox? I can, I tried to do what you asked me.

Fox:

Yes, and you're not able to.

McElroy:

I'm not able to. I won't be doing it on my personal phone. That's the only other option I have right now. I can send you a d-, a stamp of what the analyst will be giving in court. I can get that printed out.

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

They can send that to me right now and I can print it out and show you. What would you like?

Fox:

Um, none of that would prove anything, so there's no point.

McElroy:

There's no point. Okay. All right. So then I'm gonna end this interview.

Fox:

Okay.

McElroy:

Okay, so it's 12, or sorry, 2:31. Uh, we'll end , uh, the interview. Uh, we're gonna keep this recording live, though, but the audio-video in here will stop.

Fox:

(Nods head)

McElroy:

Okay? And we'll be ready to go in just a minute. Det. McElroy exits room

Fox:

(Shakes head)

VPD Interrogation of Patrick Fox (2022-05-16)