Legal Battles - USA vs Patrick Fox
Contact
Patrick Fox
Torrance, CA     90503
fox@patrickfox.org

CBP Interrogation of Patrick Fox (2019-03-15)

Synopsis

This interrogation was conducted when I turned myself in to US CBP at the Peace Arch port of entry after turning myself in to CBSA so that CBSA would remove me from Canada (or, techically, deny me readmission to Canada from the port of entry).

Before this interrogation, CBP Officer Geoffrey Obrist only had the information which was in my DHS A-File which, apparently, was pretty one-sided.

Initially, Obrist assumed I was a Canadian citizen (because that's how my A-File made it seem), and he was assertive and belligerent with me. But in the course of the interrogation, I provided him numerous documents and records from the Canadian authorities where they acknowledge I was born in the US and have no status in Canada; as well as emails between ICE, CBSA, and the RCMP, where ICE acknowledges I'm not a Canadian citizen.

In addition, I consistently insisted I am not seeking entry to the US, I am seeking a hearing before an Immigration Judge, to be able to present the evidence that I was born in the US, that I am not a Canadian citizen, and that I am not the person I was deported as; and that I am willing to sit in ICE custody for as long as it will take to accomplish that.

About half way through the interrogation, Obrist leaves to speak with his supervisor about the case. When he returns, he is no longer assertive or belligerent. In fact, he is, at times, even amicable. Something must have happened when he spoke with his supervisor, that caused them to realize I was, in fact, born in the US; that ICE knew I was born in the US; and that I was deported illegally.

At one point, toward the end of the video, Obrist is speaking with his supervisor, and they seem to be expressing concern about me going before an Immigration Judge with my evidence because that will certainly result in "a review".

Obrist's supervisor eventually told him to process me as a foreign national seeking asylum, rather than as a person claiming US citizenship. That makes sense because it would be extremely bad and embarrassing for me to go before an Immigration Judge with proof that DHS and the Immigration Court knowingly deported a US citizen.

PDF
Statement of Patrick FOX
Burnaby File:
19-10877
Statement Date:
2019/03/15
Statement Time:
1856 hours
  • Obrist:
    Officer Jeffrey OBRIST
  • Carter:
    Officer CARTER
  • UF:
    Unidentified Female(s)
  • UM:
    Unidentified Male(s)
  • Fox:
    Patrick FOX

Reviewed by Cst. K. Brown 2019/11/05 kmb

Video recording of the entire entire interrogation

1.
(background conversations)
2.
UM:
Sorry, [indiscernible] body that patdown, then I'll [indiscernible].
2.1.
Obrist:
Yeah.
2.2.
UM:
[indiscernible].
3.
Obrist:
Alright um I don't know what's gonna happen to the guy today so.
3.1.
UM:
Yeah. Nuh, I'm just letting you know.
3.2.
UM:
[from radio] I miss you all, man.
3.3.
UM:
Weirdo.
3.4.
UM:
Weirdo.
3.5.
Obrist:
So, he's gonna claim to be a US citizen.
3.6.
UM:
Yeah. He did it earlier. He's done it before. [Indiscernible]
3.7.
Obrist:
I'd do a ... IJ first.
3.8.
UM:
He's already been indicted once before ... by?
3.9.
Obrist:
[indiscernible]
3.10.
UM:
I'll talk to him.
3.11.
UM:
'Kay.
4.
UM:
Yeah. [indiscernible]
5.
(background conversations)
6.
Obrist:
Have a seat on that bench.
7.
Fox:
Um, I should mention I have documentation as well from IRCC that states that I was born in the United States. Again the inference from that would be a United States citizen, but your documentation says that I was born in Canada. Um,
8.
Obrist:
Well, I think personally if you really wanted me to believe that you woulda brought it with ya.
9.
Fox:
Yeah it's on my phone though. They're PDFs. I have the originals but I --
10.
Obrist:
Where's your phone?
11.
Fox:
You guys have it. That officer has it.
12.
Obrist:
Oh, it's heavy.
13.
UF:
[laughing] You want me to carry it for you?
14.
Obrist:
No I'm good thank you. I just remembered I was strong.
15.
Fox:
I think that the battery's dead I have a charger in my bag, though.
16.
Obrist:
Of course it is.
17.
Fox:
Um, well it wasn't earlier but then CBSA was going through it as well.
18.
Obrist:
Why would they go through it?
19.
Fox:
Because I stopped in there before I came over here.
20.
Obrist:
To do what?
21.
Fox:
Um, just to check, ah, with them to make sure that everything was okay because of the probation conditions.
22.
Obrist:
Charge it up. Show me.
23.
Fox:
Thank you. I'm so sorry. Um, I also have from another government agency, documents here that also state, that I'm a United States citizen. May I use that or is there another one?
24.
Obrist:
There's one right behind your bag.
25.
Fox:
Oh, okay. And yes, I agree with you I shoulda been more prepared and I should have printed them beforehand.
26.
Fox:
Um, I'm sorry it won't go because the plug is, 'cause the bench is too close. Thank you. Do you want me to forward it to you or do you just wanna --
27.
Obrist:
No.
28.
Fox:
-- see it on the phone here?
29.
Obrist:
I just wanna see it on the phone.
30.
Fox:
Okay. I also have, ah, recordings of my telephone conversations with CBSA and IRCC as well, where they state, ah, on the telephone that I'm not a Canadian citizen and I have no status in Canada. And I have those recordings on here too.
31.
Obrist:
There's 200 and some countries in the United, or in the world, ah, all saying you're not a Canadian citizen doesn't automatically make you a US citizen just --
32.
Fox:
I realize yes.
33.
Obrist:
-- not one of of those 200 and some countries.
34.
Fox:
Um so this is a document I received through a freedom of information request. And the entire document, including the letter, is on here so you can see that I requested for both names Richard RIESS and Patrick FOX. Um, and then there, what they call an FOSS a field office support system. That's the report in there, and you can see, Place of Birth states United States of America. Um, and I guess that entry was made somewhere 2008 when ICE was first, trying to deport me. That was long before I ever had any contact with, ah, IRCC. So I was, my point with that is, I never gave them that information. So, mmm.
35.
Obrist:
Hmm. It seems to say at the bottom you're a Canadian citizen.
36.
Fox:
That's a non-computer based entry, though, that's not an official record that's just more supporting, the manual override that they did to issue the, um, ten year authorization for me to enter. Which expired in May of last year. But then I also have this document from the Ministry of Social Development and they say in here that they spoke with or communicated with IRCC and IRCC says that, ah, they found no indication that this person has been granted or issued a certificate of Canadian citizen or naturalization. A birth certificate would be, ah, one thing that would be considered a Canadian, ah, certificate of Canadian citizenship. And then down below, um, no information has been submitted to indicate any of the criteria above; you are not a Canadian citizen, an authorized permanent resident, or a convention refugee. Would you like to see that?
37.
Obrist:
Sure. You can just put it on top of --
38.
Fox:
Okay. Let me say if I may, um, I'm not trying to give you guys any grief or give you a hard time or anything like that --
39.
Obrist:
Well, again --
40.
Fox:
I know that you're not --
41.
Obrist:
-- if, if you weren't trying to give us grief or hard time, you, you would have done this in the right order, I mean --
42.
Fox:
I --
43.
Obrist:
-- So I don't know.
44.
Fox:
Would it be better if I went, printed the documents and came back?
45.
Obrist:
Ah --
46.
Fox:
I mean I can do that, um --
47.
Obrist:
I'm not the one, ah, coming here is not the answer to your questions.
48.
Fox:
Oh.
49.
Obrist:
I'm not the one that's gonna make you a US citizen. No one in this building is. That seems like that'd be pretty obvious.
50.
Fox:
Yes.
51.
Obrist:
After the steps that you've gone through already. It's, it's the judge level that's gonna take care of that. And so, again, if you were serious about this and, and tryin' to do it, I think you would have pursued that, is my personal opinion.
52.
Fox:
I --
53.
Obrist:
But you're here so we have to process you.
54.
Fox:
Alright. Oh, what about the recordings? Would you like to hear the recordings?
55.
Obrist:
No.
56.
Fox:
No, okay. 'Cause they were, in the recordings they very clearly state that I have no status in Canada.
57.
Obrist:
Now, and, I would point out that it's not legal to make a recording in here.
58.
Fox:
Oh, no, I'm not recording anything here. No, um, I checked first to make sure it's legal. In Canada, it's legal as, as long as at least one party is aware that it's being recorded.
59.
Obrist:
Mmmm. Are you needing something else on your phone?
60.
Fox:
No. Should I turn it off?
61.
Obrist:
Unplug it all, ah, unplug it. Turn it off. Put it back in your bag.
62.
Fox:
Okay.
63.
Obrist:
It's not gonna turn off with the power cord on, is it?
64.
Fox:
Oh yeah. Yeah you just you have to hold the button for a few seconds. Allow me to say, um, as an aside, regarding that Ministry of Social Development document, I generally oppose that kinda stuff, welfare. Um, the reason I applied for it is because my probation officer suggested that I should apply for it since I can't work in Canada. Even though I told them that I wouldn't qualify for it because I don't have status and so --
65.
Fox:
Oh well,
66.
Fox:
apply for it anyway.
67.
Obrist:
So where were you born?
68.
Fox:
Florida.
69.
Obrist:
Okay. Seem like the last time they, ah, saw you you had a birth certificate from Florida. Right?
70.
Fox:
Yes and they said that it was somebody else's birth certificate and confiscated it.
71.
Obrist:
So who's was it?
72.
Fox:
Would it be disrespectful of me to say that I should decline to answer that?
73.
Obrist:
This isn't a criminal proceeding.
74.
Fox:
Um partially the reason why I don't want to answer it is because I don't think that you're going to believe me anyway and so, and I think that it would just upset you.
75.
Obrist:
I'm gonna be askin' it, so.
76.
Fox:
Okay.
77.
Obrist:
Like I said, this isn't a criminal proceeding. There is no, um, I plead the 5th. You answer the questions, ah --
78.
Fox:
Oh, I -- is that what you meant by it --
79.
Obrist:
You answer the questions, or we just, uh, we'll be here 'til you do.
80.
Fox:
[indiscernible]
81.
Obrist:
So, who's was it?
82.
Fox:
Um, Patrick Henry FOX.
83.
Obrist:
And who's that?
84.
Fox:
Ah, I have no first-hand knowledge.
85.
Obrist:
Where'd you get it?
86.
Fox:
From the state of Florida. Vital Statistics.
87.
Obrist:
Ah, how'd you get his birth certificate?
88.
Fox:
I filled out the application. I sent it in with photocopy of my driver's license.
89.
Obrist:
How did you get that ID?
90.
Fox:
What ID? BC driver's license?
91.
Obrist:
Patrick Henry FOX. How did you get the name Patrick Henry FOX?
92.
Fox:
Changed my name to Patrick Henry FOX. Just like I changed my name to Richard RIESS in '91.
93.
Obrist:
How do you get a birth certificate if you aren't born in that name?
94.
UM:
Sorry, I'll let you go man here, pretty soon. I'll let you go...
95.
Fox:
Just apply for it. I'm sorry, maybe I don't understand the question.
96.
Obrist:
My birth certificate has my name on it. 'Cause that's the name I was born with. You changed your name, how do you get a birth certificate with your name on, you weren't born with that name? So how did you get that?
97.
Fox:
I'm sorry I can't answer that.
98.
Obrist:
Why not?
99.
Fox:
I'm not saying I will, but I may potentially incriminate myself if I answer too many questions along that line.
100.
Obrist:
Again this isn't a criminal proceedings. So, whether you're incriminating yourself, ah, this is not a criminal proceedings.
101.
Fox:
Any information gathered, at this time could potentially be, be used, in a criminal proceeding in the future, could it not?
102.
Obrist:
Sure.
103.
Fox:
Ahhh.
104.
Obrist:
So again man, I'm kinda stuck what you want, ah, or expect of us to do here today. Ah, you don't seem to be willing to help yourself or help me help you?
105.
Fox:
How can I help myself? Or more importantly, help you?
106.
Obrist:
Tell the truth.
107.
Fox:
Mmm.
108.
Obrist:
You're the one claimin' to be a US citizen.
109.
Fox:
Yes. But I'm not at this time seeking entry to the United States. I'm requesting only to be able to go before an Immigration Judge.
110.
Obrist:
I asked you outside and you said you were tryin' to get out to California.
111.
Fox:
Well that would be ideal scenario yes --
112.
Obrist:
Yeah, I asked you --
113.
Fox:
But I --
114.
Obrist:
-- a simple question outside. What were you tryin' to do. And you said, to go to California.
115.
Fox:
That would be ideal.
116.
Obrist:
Again I asked you --
117.
Fox:
But I don't [indiscernible] --
118.
Obrist:
A simple question of what you were tryin' to do. And you said, go to California. I don't know how much more simple I can make this stuff. If you say you're tryin' to go to California, I'm to assume you're tryin' to go to California. Which would involve entering United States. You're the one sayin' that you're a US citizen that was -- I'm assuming you feel improperly removed from the US?
119.
Fox:
I do.
120.
Obrist:
So again, help me out here.
120a.
Obrist:
So if you're a US citizen, how are you a US citizen?
121.
Fox:
By birth.
122.
Obrist:
Where were you born?
123.
Fox:
Florida.
124.
Obrist:
We just went over this, are we doin' this again? Were you born in Florida under a different name?
125.
Fox:
I respectfully decline to answer that.
126.
Obrist:
Well, I can't help ya.
127.
Fox:
Okay. I'm sorry may I receive that Ministry of Social Development document back I just don't wanna forget it.
128.
Obrist:
We're gonna hold onto that for a bit.
129.
Fox:
Sure.
130.
Obrist:
Is that yours?
131.
Fox:
Oh, yes I'm sorry. Fell outta the side pouch I guess.
132.
Obrist:
Underneath the bench, is that yours?
133.
Fox:
Oh, goodness yes. Fell out of the same side pouch. Thank you.
134.
Obrist:
What ya got in your coat?
135.
Fox:
Cigarettes, cigarette lighter, just check here. Little card holder with a bunch of credit cards and things. Got a pair of headphones in here, ear buds. And a key that I have to return to the homeless shelter.
136.
Obrist:
In your pockets?
137.
Fox:
Empty. Just the headphones, the ear buds. Thank you.
138.
Obrist:
So what are we doin' today?
139.
Fox:
I'm sorry?
140.
Obrist:
What are we gonna do today?
141.
Fox:
I, I can't answer that.
142.
Obrist:
Well you've given me two different answers of what you're tryin' to do today.
143.
Fox:
Okay.
144.
Obrist:
Outside there and one inside here.
145.
Fox:
Okay.
146.
Obrist:
So what are we tryin' to do today?
147.
Fox:
There is, ah, what I would like to do, what would be ideal, is what I believe --
148.
Obrist:
It's --
149.
Fox:
Will [indiscernible]
150.
Obrist:
It's a simple question of what are you trying to do today.
151.
Fox:
What am I trying to do?
152.
Obrist:
Yeah.
153.
Fox:
I guess then, I would have to say I'm, trying to be able to go before an immigration judge to present the new evidence in my case. But that would be my second choice my first choice would obviously be for you guys to go oh welcome back to America. Have a nice day. And I continue on to LA but I think that that's not gonna happen that's unreasonable.
154.
Obrist:
So you're tryin' to get into the United States today?
155.
Fox:
Would, me --
156.
Obrist:
It's a simple question. Don't overthink it.
157.
Fox:
I must overthink it because if I say something, that might be able to be twisted around and used against me. Would, going into custody for the purposes of seeing, going before an immigration judge be considered entering the United States? Given my experience in the past, um [indiscernible] when I was dealing with ICE, I have to be very careful about how I word things. And I'm not, I'm not being difficult. I know that you have a job to do today um.
158.
Obrist:
I'm an officer of the United States Immigration and Naturalization Service. I'm authorized to initiate immigration laws and take sworn statements. Can I take your sworn statement regarding your application for admission to the United States. Before I take your statement I want to explain your rights and the purpose and consequence of this interview. You do not appear to be admissible or to have the required legal papers authorizin' your admission to United States. This may result in you being denied admission immediately returned to your home country without a hearing. Ah if a decision is made to refuse your admission into the United States you may be immediately removed from the country and if so you'll be barred from re-entry for a period of five years or longer. This may be your only opportunity to present information to me, for the Immigration and Naturalization Service to make a decision. It's very important to tell the truth, if you lie or give misinformation you may be subject to criminal and civil penalties, barred from receiving immigration benefits or aid, now or in the future. [indiscernible] explain to you you are not entitled to a hearing or review. US law provides protection of certain persons who face persecution, harm or torture upon return to their home country. If you fear or have a concern about bein' removed from the United States or bein' sent home you should tell me so during this interview because you will not have another chance. You'll have the opportunity to speak privately and confidentially with another officer about that fear or concern that officer will determine if you should remain in the United States or be removed from, or be removed because of that fear. Until decision is reached in your case you will remain in the custody of the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Any statement you make may be used against you in this or subsequent administrative proceedings. Do you understand what I've said to you?
159.
Fox:
I do.
160.
Obrist:
Are you willin' to answer my questions at this time?
161.
Fox:
To the best of my ability without potentially incriminating myself yes.
162.
Obrist:
Swear to tell the truth?
163.
Fox:
I do.
164.
Obrist:
[indiscernible] you a true and complete name?
165.
Fox:
Patrick Henry FOX.
166.
Obrist:
Have you used other names?
167.
Fox:
I have.
168.
Obrist:
What other names have you used?
169.
Fox:
Richard Steven RIESS.
170.
Obrist:
Is that it?
171.
Fox:
I decline to disclose anything further regarding any other names that I've used.
172.
Obrist:
What name are you born under?
173.
Fox:
I respectfully decline to answer that.
174.
Obrist:
So since you've already given me the names of Patrick FOX and Richard RIESS I ah would assume, it was not one of those names and you were born, that you were born under.
175.
Fox:
I'm sorry that, was that a question or?
176.
Obrist:
Mmm.
177.
Fox:
Oh. That is a very reasonable assumption.
178.
Obrist:
Mmm.
179.
Fox:
But I've used the name Richard RIESS since I guess what 1991. So from '91 until 2014 I was using Richard RIESS and then I went back to Fox. I've used Patrick FOX since 2014.
180.
Obrist:
Date of birth?
181.
Fox:
November 24th 1973.
182.
Obrist:
Where were you born?
183.
Fox:
Florida. I decline to be more specific I'm sorry. Meaning the county or city or particular hospital.
184.
Obrist:
What's your citizenship?
185.
Fox:
It is my belief that I'm a United States citizen.
186.
Obrist:
We're all good. Ah, are you a citizen of any other countries?
187.
Fox:
Um, no.
188.
Obrist:
Um. So, you've been deported from the US several times correct?
189.
Fox:
Twice in 2013.
190.
Obrist:
So I'll read the question again. So, you've been deported from the US several times is this correct?
191.
Fox:
That is incorrect. Several would be more than three would it not? I've been deported exactly two times.
192.
Obrist:
During those deportations you were charged to having falsely claimed to be a US citizen?
193.
Fox:
Charged but those charges and every other charge along with them were all dropped. I'm talkin' about the two times in 2013. I was convicted of false claim of US citizenship in, 2009 I think it was. 2008. I had a court appointed attorney at that time. If I was ever charged with that again I would likely represent myself. I should also clarify that in 2011 I wasn't actually deported. There seems to be some record somewhere or some comment that says that I was. But I wasn't, actually. I was brought up here to Peace Arch and then just dropped at Peace Arch, and then I went back home to Los Angeles. But I wasn't actually taken to the border or brought out of the country. And the time in 2016 also, I wasn't deported. Instead I was just brought here and handed over to the RCMP. Without any actual deportation. May I ask a question?
194.
Obrist:
Mmm-hmm, sure.
195.
Fox:
What is the difference between Customs and Border Protection and Border Patrol? There seems to be some overlap between the two agencies.
196.
Obrist:
I work at the border, they work between the borders.
197.
Fox:
Oh okay.
198.
Obrist:
So were you criminally charged with, ah, false claim of US citizenship?
199.
Fox:
Yes.
200.
Obrist:
And what was the outcome of that?
201.
Fox:
Ah, convicted of that and perjury at the same time.
202.
Obrist:
Have you applied for an immigrant visa?
203.
Fox:
I did not.
204.
Obrist:
Do you have any immigration peti, petitions pending with US Immigration Service?
205.
Fox:
No.
206.
Obrist:
Are you an American Indian born in Canada with 50% American blood?
207.
Fox:
No.
208.
Obrist:
Father's name?
209.
Fox:
I decline to answer that.
210.
Obrist:
Father's date of birth?
211.
Fox:
I have no idea. That wouldn't exactly be because I don't know it's not a --
212.
Obrist:
Where was your father born?
213.
Fox:
Um, I'm not really certain of that either.
214.
Obrist:
What's your father's citizenship?
215.
Fox:
I would assume it would be, um, American. I wasn't very close with my biological parents.
216.
Obrist:
Were you adopted or something?
217.
Fox:
No, foster homes. Ran away from home young as well. That's why I changed my name to Richard RIESS so my par, my parents and family couldn't find me any more. Not that any of that is relevant to anything here.
218.
Obrist:
Does your father have any claim to US citizenship?
219.
Fox:
He's dead now. So, I would say no.
220.
Obrist:
Well you don't lose your citizenship. So was your father have claim to US citizenship if he was alive?
221.
Fox:
It is my understanding that he was a US citizen.
222.
Obrist:
And how do you come to that understanding?
223.
Fox:
Um, because the little bit that I know of him, and since it is my belief that I was born in the US. Um, I just assume that he also was born in the US.
224.
Obrist:
Lots of people born in the US, their parents weren't born in the US.
225.
Fox:
That is true.
226.
Obrist:
Mother's name?
227.
Fox:
I'm sorry I respectfully decline to answer that.
228.
Obrist:
Mother's date of birth? Doesn't matter [indiscernible]
229.
Fox:
Yeah I don't know it, I thinks it's August something.
230.
Obrist:
Where was your mother born?
231.
Fox:
Again I can't be certain. Although I'm quite confident in the US but I, I don't know where.
232.
Obrist:
What's your mother's citizenship?
233.
Fox:
I believe it would be US.
234.
Obrist:
Why are you at the border today?
235.
Fox:
Um, I mean no disrespect by this but, could you phrase it in a different way or? I'm just, I'm not really sure, because, ah, in discussion earlier if I say that ideally, I would like to return to Los Angeles but realistically I don't expect that to happen. Um, or can I provide that for an answer or? I guess, I guess the best answer would be seeking a hearing before an Immigration Judge.
236.
Obrist:
Have you had a hearing with immigration judge previously?
237.
Fox:
I have.
238.
Obrist:
So why another one?
239.
Fox:
Because I have new evidence to support my claims, ah, since that time. I was convicted of perjury and false claim of US citizenship based on me being Ricky RIESS from Sudbury, Ontario, Canada. If I'm not, that person as IRCC is now saying, and it seems to me that --
240.
Obrist:
How are they saying you're not Ricky RIESS?
241.
Fox:
Well, because if I'm not a Canadian, they're saying I'm not a Canadian citizen and I have no status in Canada.
242.
Obrist:
No, that has nothin' to do with being or not being Ricky RIESS.
243.
Fox:
But if Ricky RIESS was born in Canada, then I can't be him but also I've been trying to get DNA tests from his parents, um, but the court has been fighting me on that.
244.
Obrist:
All this is is saying what Patrick FOX, ah, a name that you've, picked out of the air.
245.
Fox:
Okay.
246.
Obrist:
So that has no bearing on, on you.
247.
Fox:
The IRCC documents that I have on my phone, for example, um, are under the name Richard RIESS and Patrick FOX. The UCI number, is assigned to, to both names. UCI number is the same as an A number.
248.
Obrist:
So you have, I have new evidence to support my claim?
249.
Fox:
Yes.
250.
Obrist:
Of,
251.
Fox:
That I am not the person that I was deported as. I realize the evidence doesn't prove that I'm a United States citizen. But I believe that it reasonably proves that I'm not a Canadian citizen and that I'm not that person. And if I'm not that person, then there's no evidence that I'm not a US citizen. Does that Ministry document not mention Richard RIESS 'cause I provided that name to her, oh yeah, she does mention in there that I told her about how I was given assistance under a different name. The different name she's referring to is Richard RIESS, when I was first deported.
252.
Obrist:
Who were you deported as?
253.
Fox:
Richard RIESS. And she would have given IRCC the, ah, UCI number. So the name would have been irrelevant.
254.
Obrist:
So if you're not Richard RIESS who are you?
255.
Fox:
Patrick FOX. And what was my name before Richard RIESS? That I would decline to answer. Not because I have anything to hide about it I just want nothing to do with it. I want no official records tying me to any of that. I mean I was too young at that age to really have done anything wrong. Well actually that's not true I guess, 12 year olds can go around killing each other.
256.
Obrist:
You stated you changed your name to Patrick FOX when?
257.
Fox:
Early 2014.
258.
Obrist:
With what court system?
259.
Fox:
Um, the procedure is different in Canada. You just do it through Vital Statistics. Fill out a form, get fingerprints, pay fees, send it in and that's it. Of course, I changed the name from Richard RIESS and if I wasn't actually that Ricky RIESS from Sudbury, then there's a question of well was the name change actually legitimate. I don't know if that matters.
260.
Obrist:
So many questions. Um, you go to, who did you change it with?
261.
Fox:
Ah, Department of Vital Statistics.
262.
Obrist:
Did you tell the Immigration Judge about this stuff?
263.
Fox:
I told the immigration judge that I had changed my name from my birth name, yes. They didn't inquire about my name prior to Richard RIESS. Um, it also came up, the deportation officer that testified at the perjury trial also brought that up in perjury trial but again nobody questioned what my name was prior to Richard RIESS. They had all already decided at that point that I was an illegal alien from Canada so nobody cared.
264.
Obrist:
Are you seekin' admission into the United States today?
265.
Fox:
May you explain to me what the potential consequences would be of answering either yes or no to that? I just don't want to --
266.
Obrist:
No I cannot explain it to you. I need you to tell me what you're seeking entry or what you are coming to the port to do. It's a simple question are you seeking admission to the United States today. You already know that you are inadmissible. You already know that. You chose to come here. You made this choice not me. I'm asking you --
267.
Fox:
[indiscernible]
268.
Obrist:
Are you seeking admission to the US today?
269.
Fox:
I don't believe that I'm inadmissible because I believe that I'm a United States citizen and a United States citizen cannot be inadmissible. Um, I am seeking the opportunity to go before an immigration judge.
270.
Obrist:
Where do you live?
271.
Fox:
Currently I am homeless. You wish for the address of the shelter I've been staying at? Or are you asking about the city or what?
272.
Obrist:
You've been stayin' in a shelter?
273.
Fox:
Yes.
274.
Obrist:
What's the name?
275.
Fox:
Yukon.
276.
Obrist:
What?
277.
Fox:
Yukon, ah, U-, or Y-U-K-O-N.
278.
Obrist:
And where is this?
279.
Fox:
In Vancouver.
280.
Obrist:
How long you been stayin' there?
281.
Fox:
I guess it's been four or five weeks.
282.
Obrist:
And prior to that, where were you?
283.
Fox:
Prior to that I spent a couple weeks at a hostel called the Cambie Hostel.
284.
Obrist:
And prior to that?
285.
Fox:
Ah, another shelter called the Belkin House. B-E-L-K-I-N. And prior to that I was in jail for two-and-a-half years.
286.
Obrist:
What was the shelter called for, or at, before Cambie?
287.
Fox:
Ah, Belkin. B-E-L-K-I-N. House.
288.
Obrist:
Prior to that, was in jail for?
289.
Fox:
Two-and-a-half years. Since end of May 2016.
290.
Obrist:
And where was that?
291.
Fox:
Um, a year and a half at a place called North Fraser Pretrial Centre. And then a year at a place called Fraser Regional Correctional Centre.
292.
Obrist:
What was the pretrial place?
293.
Fox:
North Fraser. F-R-A-S-E-R.
294.
Obrist:
And a year at what?
295.
Fox:
Ah, Fraser Regional Correctional Centre.
296.
Obrist:
What was your conviction that led to this?
297.
Fox:
Ah, criminal harassment. Which is a very vague term, I realize. I created a website, you might have seen it while you were in, investigating earlier.
298.
Obrist:
I did.
298a.
Obrist:
So, what are you wanting me to do today?
299.
Fox:
I want you to let me walk out of here and return to Los Angeles.
300.
Obrist:
How is that seein' a judge?
301.
Fox:
Um, seeing a judge is what I believe is the most likely or probable thing to happen. As opposed to letting me walk out of here.
302.
Obrist:
So ah,
303.
Fox:
But you're asking me --
304.
Obrist:
[indiscernible]
305.
Fox:
What do I want to.
306.
Obrist:
How am I supposed to put you in front of a judge? There's not one here.
307.
Fox:
Right I would assume that I would be detained until I see a judge. It's not an ideal situation I realize but I'm stuck between a situation where I'd be detained in the US, to see a judge, maybe get something worked out; or return to Canada and be homeless and penniless for three years because of probation conditions, and I'm not allowed to leave or work there. So what's worse?
308.
Obrist:
Are you seeking asylum from Canada?
309.
Fox:
In my mind, that would be reasonable. Because I believe that the website and what I was convicted of was nothing more than an issue of free speech and so in my mind I was sentenced to two-and-a-half years, um, simply expressing my beliefs and opinions about someone. But I don't think that that argument would, ah, stand up in court. That it would be --
310.
Obrist:
Ah, seems like you already had your day in court and it didn't. That's just my opinion.
311.
Fox:
Have you seen the R v Fox section of the website? With all the evidence about the collusion and the corruption that occurred in the case?
312.
Obrist:
Ah, no.
313.
Fox:
Okay. It's just like the perjury case all over again. A lawyer who doesn't bring up evidence and ...
314.
Obrist:
Doesn't lie.
315.
Fox:
Would being persecuted for exercising your constitutional right to freedom of speech, be a legitimate basis for seeking asylum.
316.
Obrist:
I don't know. I don't make those decisions. So, in my mind the website created was a form of free speech.
317.
Fox:
Yes, um --
318.
Obrist:
I didn't get the rest of it.
319.
Fox:
It was, oh, I'm sorry. Um, it was nothing more than an expression, or a form of free speech, as you had said, um, and I was convicted and sent to prison for two-and-a-half years, plus three years of probation, um, for doing what I believe was nothing more than expressing my opinion and beliefs, sorry [indiscernible]. And if I'm returned to Canada I am most likely going to be arrested again and put back in jail. For the same reason. Because the website is still there.
320.
Obrist:
Are you claiming to be a United States citizen?
321.
Fox:
I'm saying that I believe that I'm a United States citizen. Which is not the same as making a claim being a United States citizen. I'm only expressing what I believe.
322.
Obrist:
Are you a United States citizen?
323.
Fox:
I believe I'm a United States citizen.
324.
Obrist:
Again these aren't tricky questions man.
325.
Fox:
The last time I --
326.
Obrist:
You know I, again --
327.
Fox:
Said yes I am.
328.
Obrist:
Again, these aren't tricky questions you either are a United States citizen or you aren't. I believe I'm the best lookin' man in the world but I'm not.
329.
Fox:
The last time --
330.
Obrist:
So again.
331.
Fox:
-- that I stated unequivocally and directly that I'm a United States citizen, I was charged with false claim of US citizenship and then had a lawyer thrust upon me that did absolutely nothing at the trial and I was convicted of it and then I was deported based on that conviction.
332.
Obrist:
Are you a United States citizen?
333.
Fox:
I believe I'm a United States citizen. I am not making a claim of being a United States citizen.
334.
Obrist:
Alright, well, I gotta figure out what my bosses want me to do.
335.
Fox:
Okay.
336.
Obrist:
So if you could hang out here for a minute.
337.
Fox:
I don't suppose I can go have a cigarette.
338.
Obrist:
No.
339.
Fox:
Didn't think so.
340.
Obrist:
Give me just one minute.
341.
(Officer OBRIST leaves room)
342.
Obrist:
Hey CARTER. Can I talk to you for a sec?
343.
(Officer CARTER enters room)
344.
Fox:
How are you Agent CARTER?
345.
Carter:
Hey doin' fine.
346.
Fox:
You're referred to as agents right?
347.
Carter:
No officers.
348.
Fox:
Oh, oh okay. Officer, sorry. Two countries they both say I'm not a citizen of that country and not born in that country. The US says I was born in Canada, I'm a Canadian citizen. Canada says I'm born in the US and I'm a US citizen.
349.
Carter:
What do you say?
350.
Fox:
I say I was born in the US and I'm a US citizen. The oldest record, officially, of me anywhere is in the US. The only records of me ever being in Canada are from after I was deported to Canada, so.
351.
Carter:
What about your birth certificate?
352.
Fox:
Oh yes, I have a birth certificate from Florida.
353.
Carter:
From Florida.
354.
Fox:
Yes. I don't have it with me right now though because --
355.
Carter:
You have digital copy of it?
356.
Fox:
On my server, sure. I suppose.
357.
Carter:
Mmm.
358.
Fox:
But anyway I wasn't expecting to get entry today. I figured I'd, ah, come here, I'd get arrested, and be detained by ICE. And eventually I'd go before an Immigration Judge, and at that point I would provide all of the evidence.
359.
Carter:
Sounds like you know the ins and outs of it.
360.
Fox:
Oh, I dealt a lot with ICE before when they were trying to deport me.
361.
Carter:
Okay, well that's a serious thing and I think, it's not something they'd lightly do.
362.
Fox:
Deport someone?
363.
Carter:
To deport someone, yes, of course.
364.
Fox:
[laughing] Oh. Oh well --
365.
Carter:
Especially --
366.
Fox:
-- ah, okay. As an agency I agree. But, um, there's always some bad apples or some people who let the power go to their head or something. Um, it's not ICE as an agency that did anything wrong I think. I just happen to get two deportation officers that, didn't agree with me on some matters in [indiscernible].
367.
Carter:
Well that's just something that, ah, you wouldn't want to do if you're in this profession. To deport a US citizen [chuckles] --
368.
Fox:
I think --
369.
Carter:
-- might not be a very good thing to be done, right?
370.
Fox:
I, I think though, not just in Homeland Security but also in any other justice system, ah, agency, um, there are some people that are arrogant enough that they think that nothing will ever happen to them. Mostly prosecutors, prosecutors a lot because --
371.
Carter:
I won't dispute that. Yeah.
372.
Fox:
Um, I agree it was a very bad thing from [indiscernible] but also I've discovered that once a judgement is made, it's hard as hell to get the court or anybody to change it or admit that something was done wrong or ...
373.
Carter:
Mmm-hmm, yeah. I'm sure of that.
374.
Carter:
Yeah.
375.
Carter:
Mmm-hmm. So you fully anticipated that this is the process and you had, you had received?
376.
Fox:
Well see the thing is like I said Canada is saying I'm not a Canadian citizen. I'm saying I'm not a Canadian citizen. I have no work authorization in Canada. But I'm on probation because I created this website, and so then I was convicted of criminal harassment in Canada. Um, and I have three years probation where I'm not allowed to leave British Columbia, but I'm not allowed to work. So I got released at the end of December and I'm staying in a homeless shelter. Now, I'm a software engineer so I usually make 100 to 150,000 a year and all of a sudden now I'm living in a homeless shelter. And this is what I have to look forward to for the next three years. So I just decided, you know what, I'd rather sit in an immigration facility and wait to see a judge, than to keep living in a homeless shelter spending all my days at Starbucks. Kind of a choice between two crummy situations I realize.
377.
Carter:
Yeah that's ah --
378.
Fox:
But I think I'd rather be in custody in the US, than to be free in Canada nowadays. 'Cause the feminism and the political correctness in Canada has gotten so out of hand.
379.
Carter:
Could be, well there's dangers [laughing] in every country. Florida, huh?
380.
Fox:
Mmm, just born. Spent all my life in LA.
381.
Carter:
Ah.
382.
Fox:
Moved there when I was very young.
383.
Carter:
Mmm-hmm. What was your website?
384.
Fox:
desireecapuano.com. My ex-wife. The point of the website was to publish as much evidence of all the bad, horrible things that she's done to people so that other people who meet her will know the kinda person she is. Because she's one of these sociopaths that acts very sweet and everybody thinks, "oh what a wonderful girl". But, um, she's just a horrible, manipulative person. So, I published a bunch of proof on there, you know, recordings of her [indiscernible] --
385.
Carter:
You created a warning to the world.
386.
Fox:
Essentially yes. And for that I went to prison for two-and-a-half years. But, they forced a lawyer on me to do the cross-examination.
387.
Carter:
What was the, what was the charge?
388.
Fox:
Criminal harassment.
389.
Carter:
Criminal harassment.
390.
Fox:
Yes and I'm saying, it's a website. She can't be harassed by it unless she goes to it. I mean she's the one that is choosing to go to the website. So how can I be the one harassing her. And besides, she went on the news and told a bunch of lies about me. Which is essentially the same thing right? Different medium, I mean one's a website, the other one's going on the news, but then most news agencies now put their stuff on the internet as well.
391.
Carter:
True.
392.
Fox:
So, if you google Patrick FOX there's all these news stories about all this horrible stuff I did. Not one mention of any of the bad stuff she did.
393.
Carter:
It's an interesting, situation.
394.
Fox:
Mmm.
395.
Carter:
Hmm.
396.
Fox:
I'm sure it's gonna make a very interesting TV movie or book or something.
397.
Carter:
Did you have an attorney?
398.
Fox:
Um, on this case, I chose to represent myself because I had an attorney at first. And he seem like he was trying to help the prosecutor more than anything so I fired him, um, represented myself. But then there's a statute in Canada that for certain types of offenses, if the person's representing themselves and if the Crown requests it, the Crown is the prosecutor, it's what they call them up there. If the prosecutor requests it, then the court has to appoint an attorney to do the cross-examination of the person, so that I'm not cross-examining her myself. So that lawyer then, and all this is on the website but, ah, and all the evidence of the collusion between the prosecutor and this attorney that was forced on me. Um, she was lying through her teeth. I counted 230 instances of perjury that she committed in eight hours of testimony. Didn't cross-examine her on a single one. And I'm tellin' him look we have the proof right here she's lying why are you not asking her about this. Oh, don't worry we'll get to it, we'll get to it. So that's how I was convicted. But, as I say, it's all on the website. All the transcripts, the audio recordings from the trial, um, all of the emails, the threatening emails, the harassing emails, she had sent me for years before I finally created the website.
399.
Carter:
So, the, ah, the information that's on the website.
400.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
401.
Carter:
It's not something that can be done away with, I mean. Let's, I'm, I'm assuming the server, it's not within the jurisdiction of Canada.
402.
Fox:
No definitely not.
403.
Carter:
Okay, so therefore they can't shut it down.
404.
Fox:
Right.
405.
Carter:
Ah,
406.
Fox:
But one of the probation conditions was that I take the website down. So upon my release from custody I was required to take the website down. But the website had already gone offline because, um, while I was in custody I couldn't renew the hosting plan. But, there is a non-profit organization called the Internet, the Internet Archive, um, dot org. And they have a crawler, a web crawler that makes cached copies of other websites, like all over the internet. And so there was a copy of it in there as well. So, even though it went offline, the primary site, a copy of it, was still accessible there.
407.
Carter:
So what would you have to do to reinstate it?
408.
Fox:
To put the website back up?
409.
Carter:
Right. Yes what would you have to do?
410.
Fox:
Ah, just go ahead and put it back up but not --
411.
Carter:
And just pay the fee for your hosting.
412.
Fox:
Oh yeah, yeah.
413.
Carter:
That's all.
414.
Fox:
Or just create a new one, um, based on the old one, 'cause I still have all the source material from the old one. Um, but one of my probation conditions prohibits me from, was it publishing, disseminating or distributing any information about her and her fiancée and stuff. Um, there's nothing that prohibits me from creating, maintaining a new version of the website on my own systems. And then if somebody else publishes it, then that wouldn't be, I mean --
415.
Carter:
Are you aware of any --
416.
Fox:
[indiscernible]
417.
Carter:
-- groups that would? Publish it?
418.
Fox:
Oh yes, the version that's on the internet right now, that went online about a week ago or something.
419.
Carter:
Mmm-hmm.
420.
Fox:
Um, I didn't publish that. I wrote the content that's on there but I didn't publish it. So, technically I'm within the probation conditions.
421.
Carter:
Technically. Well that's --
422.
Fox:
But --
423.
Carter:
-- that's nice.
424.
Fox:
-- the thing is, um, I'm going, if I remain in Canada, I'm gonna be re-arrested for it anyway. I mean and, they're gonna find something to, like either they'll bring a new criminal harassment charge or, um, they'll say it's a probation violation or something.
425.
Carter:
So, you were in Canada because you were deported.
426.
Fox:
Ah --
427.
Carter:
From the United States.
428.
Fox:
I was deported from the US to Canada, yes, in 2013.
429.
Carter:
That's a long time ago.
430.
Fox:
Yeah and I, I lived there for three years. And then I came back here in 2016. Just after crossing the border, I was arrested by CBP, and then they investigated and everything, and dropped all the charges. But then they handed me over to ICE. And then ICE, I guess they realized that the Canadian government wasn't gonna issue another travel document, because by that point the Canadian government did realize that I wasn't that person from, ah, Ontario. So, instead what they did was they tried convince the RCMP to request that I be sent back as a person of interest or subject of interest, to be questioned. If the RCMP agreed to that then they could just take me to Peace Arch and then hand me over to the RCMP, right? Um, the RCMP told them -- I've got emails for all of this, ah, also on the website. Um, the RCMP said that they checked the website, there's nothing illegal, and you guys already have me in custody and -- oh, they were, they were using the excuse that I had a PAL, firearms licence, in Canada. So I had four registered firearms, because handguns need to be registered, but rifles don't, anyway since I'd moved out of my apartment, um, they used the excuse that they wanted the RCMP to interview me to find out where my handguns were. Um, the RCMP said to them well you guys already have him in custody why don't you interview him, why don't you ask him. And so then in the next email, um, a couple ICE agents are talking about, ah, well we don't have any, ah, or he doesn't have a birth certificate or a passport to prove that he's Canadian, but if he can be a subject of interest, um, that might be the way to go, and we can just take him to the border --
431.
Carter:
Excuses.
432.
Fox:
Yeah.
433.
Carter:
May I, may I ask you a question?
434.
Fox:
Yeah.
435.
Carter:
You know, you were deported in 2013.
436.
Fox:
Yeah.
437.
Carter:
You're tellin' me you don't have a passport --
438.
Fox:
No.
439.
Carter:
-- from any country?
440.
Fox:
I had a Canadian passport years ago that was obtained under false pretenses. IRCC now knows that, um, um, I mean I know they can prosecute me for it because there's no statute of limitations in Canada, but I highly doubt they will because then they would have to, like, admit that they let me be deported there. Um, but the other records that I have from IRCC show that they knew that I wasn't a Canadian citizen. What they did was they issued a 10 year authorization to enter. And so, then I was deported based on that. But that authorization to enter has since expired, in May of last year. Now, ah, I was, I was deported in 2013. But I was living there till 2016, when I was gonna move back to Los Angeles. Um, and then I was brought back to the border and given to RCMP and then charged with all this.
441.
Carter:
But you, you claim to be a United States citizen. Yes?
442.
Fox:
Well okay. I have --
443.
Carter:
You, yes you, you did, ah, this is not a hard question --
444.
Fox:
Right no, no.
445.
Carter:
-- It's either a yes or no.
446.
Fox:
The thing is, I have to be careful how I answer that because remember I was convicted previously, of false claim of US citizenship. So I'm making no claim of being a US citizen, citizen. What I am saying is I was born in the United States and based on that I believe I am a United States citizen.
447.
Carter:
That's pretty clear.
448.
Fox:
Yes. But that's not the same as making a claim of being a United States citizen. There's no criminal offence, um, of saying that you believe that you are a United States citizen, if you're not. Well, I do believe that I am, it's not a matter of stating that I believe that I am but I'm not really. And, I think that these documents from IRCC and CBSA further support that belief, plus I've recorded some of my phone calls with IRCC and CBSA, where they come right out and they say that you have no status in Canada you are not a Canadian citizen. Now I realize that doesn't mean necessarily that I am a US citizen, but the only two countries I've ever been in are United States and Canada. So, I must be a citizen of one of them. Anyway I know it all sounds crazy and you're probably thinking, oh this guy should be on meds or something, um, but...
449.
Carter:
You seem lucid.
450.
Fox:
I am. I had to go for a psych assessment -- oh, and I recorded the psych assessment because the prosecutor was trying to discredit me and so he figured if I went for a psych assessment, then they would be able to say, oh he's delusional, and then they could use that to discredit me before I published all the evidence of the stuff they did wrong at my trial. Anyway, at the psych assessment it was determined there was absolutely nothing wrong with me, I'm perfectly fine.
451.
Carter:
Mmm. Except you have no country.
452.
Fox:
Yes and as far as being a citizen of something, I don't care. Um, if the US wants to say I'm not a citizen, I don't care. Um, as long as I have a place where I can physically, actually be, that's fine with me. I mean I don't care about getting any benefits of being a US citizen or being Canadian citizen or anything. I'm far too capitalist to want anything from the government anyway.
453.
Carter:
So, Tuvalu?
454.
Fox:
Hmm?
455.
Carter:
The island of Tuvalu? [chuckles]
456.
Fox:
Oh. I thought you were making some obscure academic reference. I'm like, oh.
457.
Carter:
You could, emigrate, emigrate to.
458.
Fox:
Well, I mean, preferably it would be, in either Canada or the US. Preferably the US. Um, I've become very disenchanted with Canada after this whole experience. At first I liked it, I mean, when the conservatives were in power it was much more right wing and then these liberals with this Justin Trudeau, ah, just. I'm a very, very conservative person, like, I'm not conservative as in Republican conservative, I'm more conservative as in libertarian conservative. I believe in personal freedom and such. Um...
459.
Carter:
These seem to be good values.
460.
Fox:
I don't know if they'd work in practice because it's never actually been tried in the US before. Um, I like Trump. A lot of people don't like Trump but, personally I think he's doing a good job.
461.
Carter:
But I don't understand, since all this time --
462.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
463.
Carter:
-- you never applied for a US passport.
464.
Fox:
No. Um, like I said I have no interest in claiming or making any stake of citizenship in any country anymore. The US deported me. They held me in custody for four years, jerked me around, charged me with all this stuff, tryin' to get me to plead guilty to something. I didn't and it dragged out for four years. Then they let me go. And then a year later my ex-wife is like complaining to Homeland Security: oh, this guy's an illegal alien he's tryin' to take my kid and if you guys don't do something I'm going on the news media about it. So then ICE comes to my apartment in Los Angeles, arrests me, I lose custody of my son, and I get deported to Canada. Um, so at that point I decided, you know what to hell with it. Um, I don't care about US citizenship or anything. Canada seemed like a fine place at the time. And so I decided to stay up there for a few years.
465.
Carter:
Hmm, well being stateless. That's...
466.
Fox:
[indiscernible] states,
467.
Carter:
That's a u, unique situation.
468.
Fox:
I'd be fine with that. Um, like right now I guess I'm the closest thing I can be to stateless because I've got two countries that I've lived in, um, that I have [indiscernible]
469.
Carter:
At this, at this particular moment in time it sounds like it.
470.
Fox:
Well, but I've got two countries that I have history with. But both countries are insisting that the other country is the one that I'm from and that I'm a citizen of. It's even worse than stateless. It's like being shunned by the two countries.
471.
Carter:
You got a point there. It's [chuckles] true. Mmm. Now I have read, about people who have been in that situation before. But it's normally because they've renounced their citizenship.
472.
Fox:
Yeah.
473.
Carter:
And then they end up as a, well I don't have citizenship [indiscernible]
474.
Fox:
Right, right.
475.
Carter:
That's how it occurs, it's unique.
476.
Fox:
And I would never go as far as renouncing US citizenship because, having been away from the US for a few years now, um, I've become more and more patriotic and when I see the American flag and I think, like, oh fuck I'm homesick; God, I wanna go back to Los Angeles, and such but, um, so. I don't like to use the word love 'cause it's a fuzzy emotional word. But, ah, yes I, I would say, that I do love the United States, and the society and the culture. Ah, there's some things about the government or some government agencies I'm not too keen on but you take the good with the bad.
477.
Carter:
Ah, okay well so you never travel?
478.
Fox:
No.
479.
Carter:
Never travel...
480.
Fox:
Been around many parts of the US and I've been to Vancouver and that's about it.
481.
Carter:
Ah, you'd need a passport to do some international travel.
482.
Fox:
Yeah. I'll tell ya though, I have very little interest in going anywhere. When I was younger I thought maybe I'd like to go see Europe but, mmm. Nowadays, I'm happy with southern California and I don't mind Arizona, Texas is nice, um...
483.
Carter:
Mmm, mmm.
484.
Fox:
Washington is too cold for me. It rains too much up here. It's pretty much like Vancouver.
485.
Carter:
Mmm-hmm.
486.
Fox:
I'm assuming you're not originally from here, right? You guys get moved around a lot don't you?
487.
Carter:
If we choose to.
488.
Fox:
Oh, okay.
489.
Carter:
Yeah I grew up in the southwest.
490.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
491.
Carter:
Texas, Arizona.
492.
Fox:
Ah. I used to live in Arizona for a few years.
493.
Carter:
Mmm. Too hot.
494.
Fox:
Yeah it is hot.
495.
Carter:
Phoenix is too hot.
496.
Fox:
But um, having spent most of my life in southern California and see, the thing about California is that northern California is very left wing. Very, very tree huggerish. Whereas southern California is much more conservative, um --
497.
Carter:
Sure.
498.
Fox:
And so, I like southern California, don't like northern California at all. But, ah, having spent most of my life in California, with the gun laws they have there, and I'm very much a, an enthusiast, ah, second, second amendment supporter. Um, I had a firearms licence in Canada but obviously they revoked that after the criminal harassment thing. So when I moved to Arizona, the gun laws there were so lax, I thought, ah this is wonderful. 'Cause they're so strict in, especially like in the Los Angeles area, you can't carry...
499.
Carter:
I never lived in California.
500.
Fox:
Mmm. I like LA a lot. The rest of it mmm.
501.
Carter:
Mmm-hmm.
502.
Fox:
I think I just like LA so much because it's a huge, huge city and, um, I don't know. It's always changing and always, new people coming and going, very transient.
503.
Carter:
Well it's international city, yes. That's for sure, yeah.
504.
Fox:
Where abouts in Texas did you live? I spent some time in San Antonio.
505.
Carter:
Oh. Houston.
506.
Fox:
Oh, okay.
507.
Carter:
And, ah, El Paso.
508.
Fox:
Oh sure, sure.
509.
Carter:
Mmm-hmm. But there are many places in the world that are interesting.
510.
Fox:
Are there, though?
511.
Carter:
Oh yes. Yes indeed.
512.
Fox:
Hmm. Where would you say would be interesting to go visit? And, I'm not trying to play with your psyche or something here, it's none of that. I'm just making conversation.
513.
Carter:
Puerto Rico is still a US territory.
514.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm. Interesting.
515.
Carter:
Mmm-hmm. Yeah it has different laws.
516.
Fox:
Oh yeah?
517.
Carter:
Well it's been very popular with people who want different tax laws because, ah, some of them are non-existent.
518.
Fox:
Oh.
519.
Carter:
Which is nice. No, it's beautiful. Panama is, ah, really growing. Lot of development down there. Many good things possible there. A lot of things happening in Panama. Colombia is the same.
520.
Fox:
Interesting. All these place you've chosen so far, are all Hispanic or Spanish speaking places. Hmm.
521.
Carter:
Yeah.
522.
Fox:
They're all kinda in that same area.
523.
Carter:
The culture is nice.
524.
Fox:
Oh, okay.
525.
Carter:
Culture's different.
526.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
527.
Carter:
Values are different. And they're, generally really good.
528.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
529.
Carter:
The value of family is important. Responsibility. However, security is always these big fences, you know. These big walls and glass on top. It may be colorful but they still got the glass on top. Switzerland.
530.
Fox:
Oh yeah, okay.
531.
Carter:
Probably the most expensive place you can go in Europe. Gorgeous. So beautiful.
532.
Fox:
Oh, you've been there?
533.
Carter:
Trains are amazing. So nice, smooth, comfortable. People are nice. There's a difference between the western, Geneva, and the east, like in Zurich.
534.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
535.
Carter:
Much different. Zurich being nicer. Further away from France.
536.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
537.
Carter:
And their immigration problems they have.
538.
Fox:
Oh yeah?
539.
Carter:
Mmm-hmm.
540.
Fox:
Seems a lotta places in the world these days are having immigration problems. Lots of people wanting to leave their poor countries, and coming to those who have done ... ah don't even get me started on that.
541.
Carter:
The question is, where you wanna im, immigrate? That's the question.
542.
Fox:
I just wanna live my life. I wanna get my son back. And help him go to university and, ah, 'cause when I got deported like I said I lost custody of my son, um...
543.
Carter:
How old is your son?
544.
Fox:
18 now.
545.
Carter:
18 well he's an adult. There is no --
546.
Fox:
Everybody always says that, but the thing is --
547.
Carter:
There is no custody in place.
548.
Fox:
No, I realize, I realize. But it's not about custody at this point. It's about, my ex wife is a horrible person. All the stuff I say about her on the website is true. I mean there's proof of all the stuff there. Um, she's not giving him any proper guidance or, or teaching him the right way to live, or how to treat people. I mean, the longer he's with her the more he's gonna be like her, and I don't want him to become a manipulative sociopath like she is. So...
549.
Carter:
Well. A, a child that is in that particular environment, um, has very few choices.
550.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
551.
Carter:
Because if they show any resiliency and they, ah, stand up for themselves and they say, I do not want to adopt your values, and behave in your manner.
552.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
553.
Carter:
Then they will become the object of persecution --
554.
Fox:
Right, right.
555.
Carter:
-- and suffer. So, that's a tough choice for any child who's stuck with a --
556.
Fox:
Yeah.
557.
Carter:
-- sociopathic person. Because you know, they will become the favorite target of a lot of [indiscernible] things.
558.
Fox:
Right. Yeah.
559.
Carter:
A lot of abuse.
560.
Fox:
She's a horrible person.
561.
Carter:
So it's only once the child is out of that situation can they begin to change. Perhaps you can be there.
562.
Fox:
Hopefully.
563.
Carter:
Yeah, you, certainly you can be in, insightful.
564.
Fox:
Oh well --
565.
Carter:
[indiscernible] someone outside of that environment.
566.
Fox:
The thing is though once I was arrested in 2016, my ex-wife cut off all communication. So, I haven't had any contact with him since May of 2016. Um --
567.
Carter:
It's up to him.
568.
Fox:
Yeah. I don't think he even realizes I'm out of jail yet, because what was in the news media, they were saying I was sentenced to three years and 10 months but I only served two-and-a-half years out of that because the early release, um, so as far as he knows I'm probably still in jail.
569.
Carter:
Y'All set?
569.1.
Obrist:
Tagging in.
570.
(Officer OBRIST re-enters room)
571.
Obrist:
So we're tryin' to decide what to do here tonight.
572.
Fox:
Okay. Before you go any further, I have to say, ah, Officer CARTER, hell of a nice guy.
573.
Obrist:
Good.
574.
Fox:
I'm sure you are too, but I understand that we're kind of in a somewhat adversarial role and you've got your job to do.
575.
Obrist:
Yeah. I don't know if adversarial but --
576.
Fox:
Well.
577.
Obrist:
-- different.
578.
Fox:
Is it okay if I get up and just stretch a bit my knees are sore from sitting so much.
579.
Obrist:
Yep.
580.
Fox:
Oh, I'm old.
581.
Obrist:
I actually, ah, can sympathize with that, I am too.
582.
Obrist:
What are you lookin' for? Where's your radio?
583.
UF:
I forgot it. It's sitting there.
584.
Obrist:
Can I get ya to...
585.
UF:
Yeah.
586.
(background conversations, outside room)
587.
Obrist:
We have to ask four more questions, sir.
588.
Fox:
Okay.
589.
Obrist:
And then my management will go back to pondering. So they're four questions. Set form questions. I just have to find them so give me a sec here.
590.
Fox:
Okay.
591.
Obrist:
Why did you leave your home country or country of last residence?
592.
Fox:
I left my country of last residence, um, in part because I believe that I was being wrongfully persecuted by the Provincial Government um, and --
593.
Obrist:
Can I catch up?
594.
Fox:
Sorry.
595.
Obrist:
Persecuted?
596.
Fox:
Yes.
597.
Obrist:
And?
598.
Fox:
And in part, because I'm not a citizen of that country. And, I'm not authorized to work in that country. Therefore, not able to support myself. When I say that, um, this, ah, you don't need to type this part if you don't want to, but, um, when I say that I believe that I was being persecuted, um, about the criminal harassment, being the website. And then having these probation conditions that prohibit me from leaving, but at the same time don't allow me to work.
599.
Obrist:
Do you have any fear or concern about being returned to your home country? Or being removed from the United States?
600.
Fox:
Um, I have the fear that if I return to Canada, I will be, continue to be persecuted in those ways. For exercising my, they call it charter right, we call it, ah, constitutional right to free speech.
601.
Obrist:
I have a fear that if I'm returned to Canada I will be --
602.
Fox:
Ah, will continue to be persecuted.
603.
Obrist:
Will continue to be persecuted.
604.
Fox:
For exercising my right to free speech.
605.
Obrist:
Would you be harmed or, excuse me. [coughs] Would you be harmed if you were returned to your home country or country of last residence?
606.
Fox:
When you say harmed, I just wanna be clear, would being arrested and detained without due process would that be considered harmed?
607.
Obrist:
Again, it's, it's --
608.
Fox:
I'll say yes.
609.
Obrist:
It's your question. Yes?
610.
Fox:
Yes.
611.
Obrist:
You have any questions of me or anything you'd like to add? As far as questions about what we're gonna do today I don't know yet and I will let you know --
612.
Fox:
Yes.
613.
Obrist:
-- in as full detail as I can, when the decision's made so when I'm saying questions it's, it's mean about what we talked about in here.
614.
Fox:
Right I, I have no questions about what was talked about here. Let me say, if I may though --
615.
Obrist:
Mmm.
616.
Fox:
-- um, I know that you're just doing your job and there's regulations that you have to follow and there's procedures that you have to follow and I don't take any of this personally.
617.
Obrist:
Is that it?
618.
Fox:
Yeah.
619.
Obrist:
Okay.
620.
Fox:
I, I'm just addressing that to you, ah.
621.
Obrist:
I understand.
622.
Fox:
Should I, should I be clear though that, ah, because the way you rai, phrased the questions, you had said, your country of origin or, um, of last residence. But I wanna be clear though, that I'm saying I'm referring, or I'm thinking in terms of country of last residence not country of origin, when I answered those. Okay, it's just, if I say country of origin then that's the admission that Canada is my country of origin.
623.
Obrist:
When was the last time you ate?
624.
Fox:
Um, stopped at the duty free shop just before, well just up there and then I went to CBSA I guess it was, I don't know some time this afternoon.
625.
Obrist:
Alright, so you're not starving.
626.
Fox:
No, no. No I'm, I'm fine thanks.
627.
Obrist:
I'll have them get ya some water here in just a minute.
628.
Fox:
Oh yeah that'd be good yeah. I realize I don't have any cash on me, um, I have credit cards though that -- ah, in case you were thinking, I'm not indigent or -- I meant to stop at a, whatchacall, a currency exchange to get some US cash, um, but I just forgot to get around to that.
629.
Obrist:
I'll have someone grab some water for ya. Can I just get you to watch here for a second? I gotta go grab, left your ID outside. Gonna grab that real quick.
630.
Fox:
Oh, thank you. Good evening.
631.
UM:
Good evening, sir.
632.
Fox:
Thank you for the water.
633.
UM:
No problem.
634.
Fox:
[coughing]
635.
UF:
You need some water?
636.
Fox:
Oh no I have some thanks it's, ah, I've been smoking much the past few days.
637.
UF:
Fair enough.
638.
Obrist:
Um. You have any ailments anything like that we have to worry about?
639.
Fox:
No.
640.
Obrist:
How tall you think you are?
641.
Fox:
5'5.
642.
Obrist:
Your weight?
643.
Fox:
130.
644.
Obrist:
Married, single, divorced?
645.
Fox:
Divorced. And brown eyes.
646.
Obrist:
Brown eyes?
647.
Fox:
No scars, marks or tattoos.
648.
Obrist:
Mmm. So there's two different procedures I have to per, I, that I can go with here. One procedure is if you are, seeking asylum, credible fear. The other one is if you're claiming to be a United States citizen.
649.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
650.
Obrist:
Two different paperwork.
651.
Fox:
But to seek asylum --
652.
Obrist:
Which --
653.
Fox:
-- I would have to be an alien.
654.
Obrist:
Which one should I go with here?
655.
Fox:
Um, well that is a dilemma.
656.
Obrist:
Mmm-hmm.
657.
Fox:
Um, I'm not going to say that I'm an alien. So that I think unfortunately rules out the asylum thing, um, but what, does the person though have to be an alien to seek asylum? I mean, if you guys are insisting that I'm an alien, is that not sufficient or would I actually have to agree with that and say, yes, I am an alien?
658.
Obrist:
No idea.
659.
Fox:
Oh. May I ask a few questions about either one? And you may or may not have answers, but, um, obviously if you proceed with the citizenship claim, then I would assume that I would be detained in custody pending the outcome of the proceedings. That could drag on for who knows how long. If I were to proceed with the asylum claim, ah, would I still be detained in custody? And that would probably also drag on for who knows how long. So from that perspective, does it make a difference?
660.
Obrist:
No, it's a question of paperwork on my end.
661.
Fox:
Do the one that has the least amount of paperwork.
662.
Obrist:
[chuckles] I wish it were that easy.
663.
Fox:
Isn't it?
664.
Obrist:
No, unfortunately it's not.
665.
Fox:
Um, what time were you scheduled to be on until?
666.
Obrist:
[chuckles] I'm here till 2 a.m., man.
667.
Fox:
Oh, okay. Okay.
668.
Obrist:
Yeah unfortunately that's not ah, not an issue for me.
669.
Fox:
I mean, it would set an interesting precedent to have somebody who's accused of being Canadian, claiming asylum here in the US because of persecution from the Canadian government. There's something you don't hear every day.
670.
Obrist:
Ah, it happens more often than you think.
671.
Fox:
Oh really? Hmm. I wouldn't have thought.
672.
Obrist:
And, ah, You know what, I'm just gonna pick one and they can change it if they want. [indiscernible] March
673.
Fox:
15th. Yes.
674.
Obrist:
No. Frisked?
675.
Fox:
Oh.
676.
UM:
[indiscernible]
677.
Fox:
Yeah.
678.
Obrist:
Believe they patted you down already, did they not?
679.
Fox:
Yup, they did. You can check again if you wish.
680.
Obrist:
I do not.
681.
Fox:
Okay. Are you thinking in terms of time you have to report what time it was at?
682.
Obrist:
No, I don't think [indiscernible]. Thumb.
683.
Fox:
Oh, too high?
684.
Obrist:
It's fine, four fingers. There's gonna be a photo in just a second. Good enough.
685.
Fox:
Ah, I always look horrible in those DHS photos.
686.
Obrist:
[indiscernible] canvas.
687.
UM:
Ah, you're almost there, eh?
688.
Obrist:
I went ahead and just picked one.
689.
UM:
Picked one what?
690.
Obrist:
I asked him if either, I filled one...
691.
UM:
He didn't wanna [indiscernible] review?
692.
Obrist:
I'm kinda crippled here. Has to then be a US citizen.
693.
UM:
[chuckles] Yeah. Well if he goes before, that'd be --
694.
Obrist:
And so, he goes before a Judge --
695.
UM:
An immigration Judge --
696.
UM:
Directly before an immigration judge --
697.
Obrist:
Mmm-hmm. That's why I pick that one but, I mean, in the end it's, so if, if he goes directly before the judge it'll go on a review.
698.
UM:
Hmm. So, now ... we're not questioning ... once. Yeah, are we?
699.
Obrist:
I'm not questioning any of it.
700.
UM:
No, no, no, no the, the citizenship.
701.
Obrist:
Yeah that's what I'm sayin' I'm not questioning any of it. He is.
702.
UM:
Oh I know.
703.
Obrist:
Alright.
704.
UM:
I'd say the credible fear, saying credible fear...
705.
Obrist:
[Sighs] So, I gotta change that.
706.
Fox:
I fear I have become a pain in the ass.
707.
Obrist:
It is what it is. Nah, I mean you're not bein' belligerent, you're not, you know.
708.
UF:
(Background talking outside room)
709.
Fox:
[coughing] I apologize for the coughing. I know it's annoying when somebody's coughing a lot.
710.
UF:
Do you need anything?
711.
Obrist:
Um, yeah. If you want to, ah, grab printed out documents.
712.
UF:
I, I'm sorry what?
713.
Obrist:
The printer?
714.
UF:
Oh. Is that a rap sheet?
715.
Obrist:
Ah, this stuff should be coming out here right now.
716.
UF:
[indiscernible]
717.
Obrist:
Alright this is yours. I'm gonna make a photocopy of that before you get it back.
718.
Fox:
Okay. There was more to that document but, ah, it's not really relevant to the citizenship issue. Did you want the rest of it or?
719.
Obrist:
I don't care. It's up to you.
720.
Fox:
Oh.
721.
Obrist:
That was a good pop.
722.
Fox:
Oh, yes.
723.
Obrist:
Mmm. Ah, we gotta redo your fingerprints it's not showin' up for some reason?
724.
UF:
[indiscernible] search on this.
725.
Obrist:
Mmm mmm.
726.
UF:
Weird.
727.
Obrist:
Yeah, um, I stop tryin' all these lines.
728.
UF:
Well it's there.
729.
Obrist:
Yeah as I said I stop tryin'. Have you had to do that new e-mail yet?
730.
UF:
Yeah.
731.
Obrist:
I hate it.
732.
UF:
Yeah it sucks.
733.
Obrist:
[indiscernible] a peace plan?
734.
UF:
Apparently not. [indiscernible] downstairs.
735.
Obrist:
[indiscernible]
736.
UF:
You can take a seat.
737.
Obrist:
Do you wanna make an extra photocopy for me? That'd be great.
738.
UM:
Got it.
739.
Obrist:
Just go ahead and read that over. Start with that we've got. A lot of readin' to do, but you can start with that.
740.
Fox:
Okay. Um, is it relevant, ah, you've got the question here: What other names have you used? Followed by the response: I have. I think the question would, should have been, um: Have you used other names? Because then the next question you have is: What other names have you used? So, does that matter?
741.
Obrist:
It's what I asked.
742.
Fox:
Okay.
743.
Obrist:
We get, we get, we get the stuff in there regardless. Good enough?
744.
Fox:
Yeah, yeah.
745.
Obrist:
Nice.
746.
UF:
Why did you print the second page twice? [indiscernible] prints once and this twice?
747.
Obrist:
Mmm. 'Cause that paper [indiscernible]
748.
UF:
Oh, you printed two?
749.
Obrist:
Maybe so.
750.
UF:
Okay.
751.
Obrist:
It's outta paper.
752.
UF:
No, 'cause it just printed somethin' out. Look at that the second pair of prints, I was just so impatient. You drivin' him?
753.
Obrist:
I've been askin' them for in an hour, what they wanna do, and they're like ... well it's your [indiscernible].
754.
UF:
You know it's him.
755.
Obrist:
Yeah. [indiscernible] given him. [indiscernible].
756.
UF:
Think you wrote them down, [indiscernible]. Now he's misspelled. Screwed himself, but then it says than.
757.
Obrist:
Yeah, it's too late. It's already been documented. Copy notes.
758.
UF:
[laughing] Yeah. Just tryin' to help.
759.
Obrist:
I'm chilly.
760.
UF:
That's fine. This is too much for me [indiscernible] is good.
761.
Obrist:
Good. Um, do do do do do. When you, ah, were out here, ah, just initially out, with the rest of people.
762.
Fox:
Yeah.
763.
Obrist:
What did you tell that officer that you were coming to do?
764.
Fox:
You mean when I first spoke to anybody?
765.
Obrist:
Yeah.
766.
Fox:
Like, the first lady?
767.
Obrist:
Yeah.
768.
Fox:
Um, first I explained to her a bit of the background and, um, about you know having been deported before, um --
769.
Obrist:
Mmm-hmm.
770.
Fox:
And I told her that I, um, I don't expect that I'm going to be admitted, um, at this time. Um, I expect most likely that I'm gonna be arrested and detained and then have to go before a, an Immigration Judge. And then a few moments after that a coupla other officers came up, put me in handcuffs and brought me over there. And that was [indiscernible]. No that was about it. Because the first few moments were taken up with the, the background of, ah, having been deported and then the criminal harassment charge. Being in jail, getting out, and that's what brought me in here today. Oh, when I gave her the drivers licence, I of course also told her that I used to go by Richard RIESS.
771.
Obrist:
Mmm-hmm.
772.
Fox:
I wasn't tryin' to conceal that. It would be pointless anyway, I mean, you guys know. I have a question about, um --
773.
Obrist:
Mmm-hmm.
774.
Fox:
The name that's being used on here.
775.
Obrist:
Mmm-hmm.
776.
Fox:
I see that it's, ah, Richard RIESS, because I understand that's what you guys have me as, 'cause that's what you first encountered me as.
777.
Obrist:
Yeah.
778.
Fox:
Um, should it be Richard RIESS or should it be Patrick FOX, since that's my legal name now? Does it matter?
779.
Obrist:
Ah, that's what I'm using.
780.
Fox:
Okay, ah, I guess it doesn't matter right?
781.
Obrist:
You are you.
782.
Fox:
Yes. Yes I am.
783.
Obrist:
Besides you, you raised the question of whether your name change was legal if the name you had before was --
784.
Fox:
Yes.
785.
Obrist:
-- not yours. So we'll just stick with what we know you as. I'm sure they'll tell me to change it. Um...
786.
Fox:
[chuckles] Would you like me to sign this now, or?
787.
Obrist:
Um, just yeah, step up, just to a hard surface to write on. And, you'll of course get copies of all of this. Just initial the bottom. It just shows that I gave you each page, not just the last page. And again [indiscernible].
788.
Obrist:
Right here. In that block. You wanna read that over?
789.
Fox:
[coughs]
790.
Obrist:
[indiscernible].
791.
Fox:
Yes, but I'm concerned about, the term alien there, because it's kind of like I'm admitting I'm an alien.
792.
Obrist:
That's what I'm charging you as.
793.
Fox:
I'm sorry?
794.
Obrist:
That's what I'm charging you as.
795.
Fox:
Oh, right, right. But I don't want that to be taken as an admission that I'm an alien. If I sign it, can I cross that off?
796.
Obrist:
You can do whatever you want.
797.
Fox:
Okay, thanks.
798.
UM:
Question for ya.
799.
Obrist:
Mmm-hmm.
800.
UM:
On the 2016 [indiscernible], remember that?
801.
Obrist:
[indiscernible]
802.
UM:
So, what was the, what happened after that? What was the outcome of that? Was he reinstated?
803.
Fox:
[coughs]
804.
Obrist:
[indiscernible]
805.
UM:
Okay, all of those things would be good to have.
806.
[indiscernible].
807.
UM:
[indiscernible] what did IAFIS show today? Get back to that name again.
808.
Obrist:
Um.
809.
UM:
Do you have a miss [indiscernible]?
810.
Obrist:
[indiscernible] from IAFIS. That's the IAFIS.
811.
UM:
He's ... is there court conditions or anything?
811.1.
Obrist:
Nah.
811.2.
UM:
-- linked?
812.
Obrist:
Um, not agreeable. Agreeable's not the right word. But understood?
813.
Fox:
I understand.
814.
Obrist:
So, yeah, per Section 235, that's basically just a removal here at the border.
815.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
816.
Obrist:
Ah, you were found to be inadmissible under 6(c)(2) and 7(a) as a native, ah, not a United States citizen or national, a native of Canada, citizen of Canada. You are, today, presenting yourself as a United States citizen seeking entry. To return to Los Angeles to continue living.
817.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
818.
Obrist:
Ah, you are an immigrant without a, ah, valid visa, re-entry permit, or border crossing card [indiscernible], seeking entry of Los Angeles [indiscernible], um, again it's not sayin' you agree with it, it's just what, what I'm sayin' from, from our end okay? Um, [indiscernible]
819.
Obrist:
Oh, yeah. Just got outta jail what, a month ago?
820.
Fox:
December 30th.
821.
Obrist:
Couple months ago. Ah, that was the harassment.
822.
UM:
A lot in the States here.
823.
Fox:
Well it looks like a lot but it's because there's a lot of duplication. For some reason there was, some of the charges show up five or six times.
824.
Obrist:
Each, yeah each state is different. It's really annoying tryin' to figure out how to read 50 different states.
825.
Fox:
Mmm-hmm.
826.
Obrist:
Plus federal, plus DC. Um, codes that are all different. So, I have to read you this warning. I don't do the verification part at the bottom so [indiscernible] for you to sign. But because you, your multiple removals from the United States, ah, there's a 20 year bar from, ah, the time you depart till you're allowed to come back. I'm just required to read you that warning.
827.
Fox:
Okay.
828.
Obrist:
I think that's about it for all of our stuff. We need to sign here. I'll go around. Oh, let me get back to this. Of course he's not in there.
829.
Fox:
[coughs]
830.
Obrist:
Alright so, where was I [indiscernible]. So the first time you got removed, looks like you actually left the United States in 2011.
831.
Fox:
That's not correct. Um, there was a removal order. The Canadian government issued a travel document at that time. End of August. Um, that's the time that I was brought over here to Peace Arch but just dropped off just south of the, ah, the border crossing.
832.
Obrist:
[yawning] And they said go that way?
833.
Fox:
They didn't say that. They just open the door and took the shackles off, and I said to them: that's it, it's, it's, it's over. 'Cause for four years I was in custody and then out of the blue, in the middle of the night, they take me from my cell; put me on a plane; and fly me up here; let me out, and they said you're not our problem any more. And then they got in the car and drove away. That's also supported by CBSA records. I have copies of those, that show the times that I was, that I entered Canada.
834.
Obrist:
Do you have three reinstatements?
835.
Fox:
"Reinstatement" meaning I was removed, or what do you mean? I'm not sure what "reinstatement" means.
836.
Obrist:
Um, yeah got that here.
837.
Fox:
There were two times in 2013. That were --
838.
Obrist:
And one in 2016?
839.
Fox:
But see that one though wasn't actually, a deportation or, um, a reinstatement, I guess. Like, there was no travel document that was obtained, um, and there was no official process or procedure that was done.
840.
Obrist:
What was done?
841.
Fox:
Um, they tried to get the RCMP to request I be sent back. The RCMP didn't go along with that, and so then they said, um, they said that if he's a subject of interest that would probably be the way to go on this, um, and that I have no documents to establish Canadian citizenship, um, and what they've done in the past, this is what they said in the e-mail, um, what their officer has done in the past, sometimes in those cases, is just takin' them to the border and hoped that Canada would accept 'em. It's in the emails that are on the website.
842.
Obrist:
What website?
843.
Fox:
Oh, the website that I created, that the criminal harassment was based on. There were emails between CBP, ICE, CBSA and the RCMP, when they were trying to figure out what to do with me back in June 2016.
844.
Fox:
[coughs]
845.
Obrist:
Ohhh, oh what to do, what to do? Are you pondering somethin'?
846.
Fox:
Yeah, I'm thinking about, um, since Canada's not gonna issue any more travel documents for me, um, even if I were to do nothing, after six months, um, 'cause ICE has to effect somebody's removal within six months under the Zadvydas law. Um, because I highly doubt that the asylum thing, ah, is gonna go anywhere. Um, 'cause everybody loves Canada. And the citizenship thing, um, they're gonna fight me on that as much as they possibly can, because they'll never admit that they deported a citizen in the first place. No matter how much evidence I come up with.
847.
Obrist:
Was there a, ending to that train of thought, there?
848.
Fox:
No, that was it. Of course that six month clock doesn't begin until after any other pending applications are complete. Yeah, I'll be in custody for a long time.
849.
Obrist:
Yup.
850.
UM:
They say what we know?
851.
Obrist:
Who says, Canada?
852.
UM:
Yep. [indiscernible]
853.
Obrist:
Oh.
854.
UM:
You know what I mean, they already, they just confirmed what we already knew. Ah, this is probably gonna be you and [indiscernible] midnighter?
855.
Obrist:
Oh, she's got overtime in the morning. You guys are gonna change that?
856.
UM:
Yup.
857.
Obrist:
Yeah, I'll be done here pretty soon. I'm just, ah, finishing up the 213.
858.
UM:
You know, ah, pat down was done.
859.
Obrist:
Yeah, ah.
860.
UM:
And so they did a, I-O-I-L so, I'm gonna have 'em cancel your I, that O-I-L.
861.
Obrist:
Yeah I, I told --
862.
UM:
And you can put that pat down information in the SAS.
863.
Obrist:
I told her as soon as I showed up behind you guys --
864.
UM:
Yeah.
865.
Obrist:
-- Pat down's the last thing, or I mean the I-O-I-L's the last thing we do. Waste of time.
866.
UM:
Right. Just to let you know that it was done. So, and it's gonna be canceled. But he was gonna leave it up, until you got a chance to look, to see what the times and names were.
867.
Obrist:
No worries.
868.
UM:
Okay?
869.
Fox:
So, I'm curious, um, did you guys consult only with CBSA, or did you actually speak with IRCC?
870.
Obrist:
Ah, sound like CBSA, but I'm not the one makin' phone calls --
871.
Fox:
Right, right.
872.
Obrist:
-- I'm in here talkin' with you. I don't know what the abbreviations are that you keep throwin' around there.
873.
Fox:
Mmm. Oh.
874.
Obrist:
IRCC -- it doesn't mean anything.
875.
Fox:
Oh, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. It's the agency that handles rec -- or immigration and citizenship issues. They make the actual determinations, CBSA is just an enforcement agency, like ICE. So, CBSA has no real authority to actually determine or do anything, they just...
876.
Obrist:
Kinda like me. Oh where we at here.
877.
Fox:
That's a lotta typing you have to do.
878.
Obrist:
Mmm-hmm.
879.
Fox:
I'm assuming it's some kinda narrative?
880.
Obrist:
Mmm-hmm. Tell ya what. I think we're done signing everything for a while. We gotta get a couple more fingerprints off you for the, you know, jail paperwork.
881.
Fox:
Oh boy.
882.
Obrist:
But ah. Hey, is that [indiscernible] in there?
883.
UM:
Uh yeah. What do you need?
884.
Obrist:
I need to put him in a cell. Like I said I'm gonna pull ya out, um, in a bit here; not in a bit, in about an hour or so, [indiscernible] ah, so [indiscernible] coat, shoes, belt, pockets inside out.
885.
Fox:
Can I keep my gum?
885.1.
Obrist:
Yeah. [indiscernible]
886.
Obrist:
I assume that's not, ah, marijuana gum.
887.
Fox:
No, no. Nicotine.
888.
Obrist:
Excellent.
889.
(indecipherable background conversation)
890.
Obrist:
Belt, shoes, getcha a blanket. Ah, watch, if ya got a necklace.
891.
Fox:
Nope. No necklace.
892.
Obrist:
Doc Martens. I like those, I wear 'em.
893.
Fox:
Ah, cool. They're the best --
893.1.
UM:
You don't see those very much.
893.2.
Fox:
Oh no?
893.3.
UM:
They're coming back now.
893.4.
Obrist:
They're comfy. They're no good on ice, though.
893.5.
Fox:
They're very popular in Vancouver. Well, mostly with Asian girls [indiscernible] and did you take the watch?
893.6.
Fox:
Did you take the watch?
894.
(background conversation/indescernible)
895.
Obrist:
Pockets. You got anything underneath the t-shirt?
895.1.
Fox:
Nope.
895.2.
Obrist:
One thousand is done.
896.
Fox:
Okay. Let me ask you [indiscernible].
896.1.
Obrist:
Let me get that cup for you.
896.2.
Fox:
Um, let me ask you [indiscernible].
896.3.
Obrist:
[indiscernible]
897.
Obrist:
So, around the corner's the toilets and water. Let me know if that's not enough. Like I said you're not gonna be here forever.
898.
(background conversation)
899.
(recording turned off)
:cal